This is not about Rich, once again.

OK, enough for the side tracking topics, back to URC,

URC still needs to start respecting their customers and make sure everyone gets the software and updates for their remotes....... That is the topic here and the most important one of all.

Your right, it is about the people who have lost their updates, it's about the people who have not been able to get their software. It's about the problems URC has caused for their customers that must be corrected.

I see, you're just messing with little ol BP. Well, Fujis are pretty much the standard bearers in this industry. Pioneer and Panny makes some decent sets too, but I'm not about to bash them.


Just as always Rich, you just love to say things like "just as always BP you're wrong." The problem is that you're wrong Rich. You should have just typed 'it' instead of 'Fujitsu' so your statement wasn't confusing. You should have just let it be, but you sure love to tweak me I guess. The problem is that when you try to do that it blows up in your face.


I see. You were just playing with us, you didn't really believe the veracity of the review. Right.


You don't trust CI's opinions, you don't trust reviews on a website either. That's very brave of you. Well, good luck in your quest pursuing knowledge in your AV hobby, all alone.

That's why real companies have dedicated customer support staffs to help their customers work through their problems.


Huh? No. In my world, our customers review our prices, and if we included an off the shelf item they can get at a lower price and procurement isn't an issue, they go buy it somewhere else.

It was comments from your fellow CI's that led me to believe that this wasn't an actual issue, because your customers aren't concerned with price, just getting the job done right. Well. Apparently not *your* customers. See? We're making some headway.


I'm more then willing to accept what you're saying when you actually make some sense. The thing is you're not the only one representing the CI point of view here.

So let's take this the next step...

What happens if the non-AD's were ever shutdown?

Ideally your customers can no longer discover lower prices via a search on eBay, or via Froogle/etc. Does this solve the unhappy customer problem for you? Or are you at all concerned they may discover that AD's such as SurfRemote, BlueDo, or ProRemotes will sell them the same gear for 1/2 the price?

Well Rich, you've been running with this for a long time, I see you have some issues with it. Let's analyze. Unless, of course, you're just harping on $1000 MX850's to tweak us because you know it's a rarity.

First of all, it's not $1000 bucks for an 850, it's $1000 for an 850, and MRF250, and programming. MSRP on both products is about $500. That leaves a profit somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 on both products.

On a $15K system, let's say $5K in speakers. $3k projector... $7K for components and install time. That's probably an AV reciever and 3 or 4 sources.

If the installer has installed the same exact setup many times before and is merely rehashing the same design again, then $500 to program may be an exhorbinant fee, I would agree. But, you don't know that. You're assuming that, because it already fits into your preconcieved opinion. The reality is that I can see $500 being a fair price to program a remote depending on components and installation environments, as well as requirements stated by the client.

Rich, you've been a hobbyist for 20 years, right? Do you think all MX850's should be programmed in 2 or 3 hours? You might be able to make a new program in that time catered to a client's request, but to then test the program with all the components for consistency? Add to that RF testing, which can sometimes be frustrating and take a lot more time. You've used RF before right?

The fact is Rich that we don't know the full skinny on the "$1000 MX850" urban legend. I'd be glad to parse it with you, objectively, just for the adventure. It's quite possible that a CI is jacking it up, but it's also at the very least quite possible that it's a fair price too.


Understood, but why do you place your value judgement onto others? Since it's not right for you, you seem to think it's not right for anybody.


Yep, placing your value judgement onto all others.


Most CI's wish they made that kind of money too. Feel free to have at it Rich, more power to you. I'll kiss your pinky ring and suck up when I see you at CEDIA teaching a class on fast programming of MX850 remotes for large profits. But then again, they're not just programming 5 remotes, they're usually installing AV gear too, running cable, etc. But you've a head start with 20 years of hobbyist experience. See you at CEDIA!

Most CI companies aren't 'real' companies then. The company I work for does $10 to $14 million a year and has 35 employees, but we don't have a 'dedicated' customer support staff. This doesn't work for CI business models. I'm the dedicated customer support agent for the jobs I run, since I'm familiar with the system.


That could work for us, but it usually doesn't. This has to do more with the inconsistency in consumer/pro electronics. There's many more variables in these products then something such as a PC.


I thought I made it clear that I'm currently working in the ultra high end market. Many customers are concerned with getting it done right, but I've never said they weren't concerned about price. Everybody is concerned about price. Even the billionaire that I'm currently completing a project for now; he price shopped us through a competitor on the 11 plasmas on his project. The competitor offered to supply the plasmas at 17 points, and we were bidding them at 33 points. We went down to 31 points to make satisfy him.

He didn't do it because he was tight on money Jon.

Either way, I cut my teeth in the entry level market. I feel for the guys who work in this market and put up with the above occurence on almost every job. It's incessant and very taxing.


I'm sorry you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm trying. True, I don't represent all CI's, I only represent myself. But, many sentiments I have are shared by many CI's. In that, I represent CI's. But, not all of us will agree on all things.


It will help remove some negative challenges to CI's trying to do business. It will help end users who buy remotes who will hopefully be served by vendors who be a little more helpful and supportive to the end users. Before the 37th complaint that nonAD's and AD's aren't that helpful now, I know. But, that doesn't mean that it still wouldn't be helpful for the price whoring box movers to go away.


See my second point above, it's not just about prices and price shopping. As for being concerned about AD's vs nonAD's, that's a non sequitir as you proposed it. Any halving of places to price shop would be net sum beneficial. Yet, customer's will still shop AD's, but the price differential will be less than it is now because URC is forcing them to offer more support for the remotes, so the prices will likely rise a little. That's a better situation than it is right now.

I've always made it clear that I think it's great for DIYers to have MX remotes available, but for most others there should be more help for them offered by the box movers and price whores.

This has nothing to do with our argument, but check out Extreme Makeover, Home Edition, Sunday on ABC.

No URC products were used in this house, I know Rich will be happy about this fact. lol

Anyways, I am hanging off the side of the frontloader in the opening sceen and hanging out on the neighbor's roof during the reveal.

I also almost ran into Ty a few time while he was pretending to be working on the house while everyone around really was working.

I wonder if Jimmy Carter is this fake doing his good deeds for Habitat for Humanity. I bet he gets paid less too. What do you think Greg??

You just proved my point again, I did type "it" and not "Fujitsu", I guess you were just wrong again. It's your face BP not mine.



I told you I got a kick about the remark of "smaller, overpriced CI's" selling them. As this fits my comments about URC remotes I have made here.


I listen to opinions, I equate them, I usually compare, learn about products and do other things to come to an opinion of my own. If someone tells me this product is better or the best, fine that is their opinion, it may not be my own.

You proved my point. You did type 'it,' which changed the meaning of the statement entirely, making it confusing. The way is was typed, 'it' referred to the statment of the reviewer, not Fujitsu. Do you really want to keep going around on this?


Oh, so you do believe the veracity of the reviewer then. Therefore, you support your opinion by sharing a comment by someone else that clearly isn't objective. If that's what you call validation, I feel sorry for you.


I know Rich. You've made it clear. You say you listen to opinions, then you say;


You listen to other's opions when they coincided with your own, but don't listen to other's opinions when they don't fit your pre-conceived opinions, case in point this thread and opinions shared by CI's. Got it.

Holy moly, is that what people pay to put a home system in?
Good for them but some of us would never dream of paying that kind of money.
Not when you can buy the 850 and MRF250 package for $250 brand new with warranty and software, on ebay. Used I've seen the 850 sell for as low as $109.
My entire system, complete with Panasonic 42" Plasma, Yamaha 5.1, Pioneer 640 HDD dvd recorder and Pioneer 300 CD changer plus the MX-850 (later replaced with the Harmony 880 remote) cost me about $3100. Programming and connections: No charge as I did that myself.

I think it's people like me that Rich is defending when it comes to URC policy.
We would NOT even remotely consider buying from an Installer or AD because we either don't have that kind of money or don't see the value in paying 3 times the price or have had bad experiece with "professionals" coming to our house or just enjoy doing ourselves.

Others have pointed out that there are two different kinds of Customers and therefore two different kinds of Markets.

Why can't URC look after all of their customers equally instead of discriminating against the do it yourself guy??

Is it a rarity? when I hear your comments it does not appear to be so rare in the CI world.


Hmm, I paid $219 (actually an MX-800 with MRF-200) from an AD so that seems to put profit a little bit higher.



Then I guess it is not such a rarity, BP make up your mind.


I think the $100/$120 an hour rates I have heard for remote programming are ridiculous.

I understand RF seems to have caused many problems for many people, as I see the posts on it here. I have an MRF-200 used for my home theater system and an MRF-100 used only for my home lighting. Both have performed excellent and were no trouble at all to set-up, so maybe I was luckier with RF than many.



Fair in your opinion, definitely not mine.

Yes, BP I know you do other things as well, but we are only talking about remotes here and now. $100.00 an hour or more to program a home theater remote is in my opinion close to robbery. Obviously why people should consider doing it themselves.

People really do spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on this stuff. We are a small company of 8 and we did several 6 figure jobs this year. So a grand for a control system is not really that much in the scheme of things.

And URC was missing out on all this with there old policies, good to see that they are getting there act together. lol

Funny thing is how happy these people are when we are finished, go figure.

Maybe I could give them Rich's number so they could get it done properly and cheap. Or at least cheap. lol

This is comical...

I'm considering giving my customers Rich's number and have him furnish and install the remote. He can come to there home, sell the remote for $200 with the mrf250. Figure out the system design, then start programming the remote. Then do the macros and gewt everything working right. Of course fixing any wiring problems while he's there. Then, when thats done, get the customer to give him favorites, music genres, fm channels and program that in. Fight with the combo player. Fight with the off brand dvd recorder. Fight with the Vizio panel from Costco nd the HTIB. Then spend 30 minutes with an orientation. As 3 or 4 or 5 hours pass by, he can gladfully be done and go home and send the bill. $200+Tax for the remote and another $30 for programming. He can take the risk of not getting paid, pay his fuel and road tolls out of the $30. Pay for the office supplies out of the 30. He can field 2 or 3 more phone calls about this or that and of course he'll come back to add a few favorites that were forgotten in the original for no charge.

Your right rich, $230 does seems fair. I'll send you all my clients. You'll be getting even richer. Hell, you'll be able to change your screen name to RICHGUY in all caps just for some emphasis. You can also tell us how your new business model is working. Youll be so busy you'll need to hire jon too.

Sure BP, I will prove you wrong if you insist. You tried to get me on a technicality, I used the word "it" for "Fujitso" this sentence required a little brains to understand that "it" was Fujitsu.

While you wrote:

"The problem is that you're wrong Rich. You should have just typed 'it' instead of 'Fujitsu' so your statement wasn't confusing."

Now who's statement is confusing as that is exactly what I did, I just typed "it" instead of "Fujitsu".

Who is the one confused here? Who made the largest mistake in their sentence? guess what BP it was you...... You just told me I should have done exactly as I did.

Sorry if using "it" for "Fujitsu" was confusing for you, I will try to make it easier for you from now on, I know now how easily you are confused. LOL



BP you have run out of excuses to defend URC so you try to slam me now? You can try and twist my words if you wish. URC still was the one in the wrong to do this to their customers.