Rich, do you actually READ the posts you respond to? The EXACT POINT of my post to Mark is that yes, there's a much larger market out there, but that's not the market URC is targeting with THIS product line. Just because there's a market out there similar to the one URC is targeting does not mean that they either WANT to sell into that market or can AFFORD to sell into that market.

People like you, who are skilled and interested enough to program these products, want all the benefits of this being a cutting-edge, professional-level product line, but you aren't willing to accept that this is not a product line marketed towards you. Yeah sure YOU might never call URC technical support, but as soon as URC markets this line towards people LIKE you, they'll get 500 customers who WILL call technical support for every ONE person like you. By marketing and selling to the custom installation market, URC knows that the people they're supporting have access to training and information that makes them about 1000 times less likely to make that support call.

So thanks for restating my point. You're a pal.



Everybody Else:

Rich is going to whip up a horror story for any point anyone makes that doesn't support his argument. So please, don't listen to him. Don't listen to me. Do some research and make some calls. Find out if URC products are right for you, or if a competing product is a better choice. Learn how URC REALLY treats people, by dealing with them firsthand.

As a custom installer, I (theoretically) stand to lose money if you choose the DIY route or if you choose certain other brands that I don't carry. But I believe you should make the choice that's right for you. I'm not afraid of you finding the truth on your own and making a decision on your own information and intelligence.

Rich has about 500 posts in this thread alone that say he doesn't want you making any decision without his input. Me personally, I get pretty annoyed when people try to think for me. I guess Rich just thinks you're not going to notice that he's trying to do exactly that. Of course, he'll reply to this with some snappy contortion of his motives, but in the end, doesn't it appear that he's trying to do exactly that: make your decision for you?

Sincerely,
Gorignak

Sure. We sell systems where the products we produce are only part of the system. The other stuff we sell may actually be priced well over MSRP in a bid because of our overhead, and often customers will insist on supplying it on their own, or will add it themselves later. But we're fine with that. We'll even help them do it with free unlimited customer support. We're not making the bulk of our money reselling equipment, but on selling our services and our own products.

We integrate systems. We perform installations. We sell consulting. We sell maintenance. We re-sell other company's equipment. We compete on many open bid and contracts. The only difference is that we also make many of our own products. Seems to me a company still has to focus on their bread and butter, which it seems to me for both companies is the ability to deliver a completely integrated turn-key system. That's why we don't care if someone can buy a PC to use with our system at Dell for less then buying it through us. That's not why people buy from us.

Which brings us back to the the topic at hand. If your strength as a CI is to offer your services at integrating an A/V system and making it work cleanly and smoothly, why do you care where the equipment comes from? If someone tries to hire you to work on something you're not familiar with, then you either decline, or your charge them whatever you need to charge them to cover the extra expense. If you're truely accounting for your expenses it really shouldn't matter.



Nah, not HTIBs. I would think A/V shops would pre-config a number of systems based on price points. That'd allow them offer those systems as a package to their customers, and then just tack on anything else as an additional expense. If the customers buy it as-is then they can offer them a big discount on the system configuration and setup. If they want to tweak it, then they have pay for it. There's no reason that CI's couldn't do the same.


Nah. The problem is you keep refusing to explain it. But let me try. Tell me if you disagree with this:

CI's prefer protected lines because they offer them products and profit margins that other lines cannot match, and end-users cannot purchase through other means.

That statment is total smoke and mirrors. I could answer yes, and it would be literally true. Figuratively, within perspective of this discussion? Not at all.

You keep trying to pare this down to a cost/price/margin discussion, when there's a lot more at play. I've been trying to explain this to you and others. The implication that I'm purposely not telling you something is either paranoia, or smoke and mirrors on your part. The fact is that we do use other products, we do compete, we do give customers what they want. We do also, sometimes, use other products supplied by a customer.

But back to the original issue... I doubt you guys or plumbers go through the same dynamics that CI's do with the large DIY and hobbyist industry. So all ananlogies aside, many comparable, there just isn't a comparison between your industry, plumbers, and the CI industry with the issues at play regarding plasmas, speakers, and programmable remotes.

Your proposal, that CI's just want protected lines so we merely (only) have protection against competition, is fallacy and just not true.

Most of those statements are true for CI's too. We sometimes will install equipment supplied by other people, but then again we get into situations where we install the other equipment supplied, but when things go wrong, we're expected to fix it. If it's the product that wasn't supplied by us, the impetus is on us to prove it wasn't our fault. It's a big PITA and a real risk that CI's deal with.


I wish it were that easy. It should work that way, but it doesn't. What happens is that we put together bids, and sometimes they are accepted. But then, the questions and challenges happen. The phone calls happen in mid install from the client, "I found out that I can get this for XX less than you're selling it to me for." "Why can't I just go buy this stuff from Costco."

In your simplistic world Jon, I guess we could all explain this stuff to the client, and all would be well. But it just doesn't run that smoothly. That's just a fact. Protected lines help deal with this real and common occurence.


CI's try to do this, and sometimes it happens. In most cases, they do more custom than prepackaged. It would be great if it worked this way, cheaper for the clients too. But they want to provide their own stuff at a cheaper discount, don't they? They just lose the product savings in time for the CI to cover his ass.


There's the underlying mistrust of CI's again. I can't tell if you're just paranoid or if your arrogance won't allow you to accept what I have been telling you, which would mean you were wrong. Bitter pill, eh?

Hmmm, I got that mis-trust when I heard of CI's charging $1000.00 for programmed MX-850 remotes.

Funny BP I searched reviews for your Fujitsu plasma you love to endorse I found the reviews were really not all that favorable for such an expensive brand, I think I will stay with Panasonic.

Here is one line from a review of Fujitsu:

"They are moving product from their myriad of model numbers, primarily through small, profit hungry specialized AV retailers and installers."

The full review can be found here:

[Link: plasmatvbuyingguide.com]

This has been a point of mine URC should expand their market not restrict it. But my main point is URC treated their customers poorly with their new policy.



URC created the horror stories, customers should know about this before buying.


I agree everyone make their own decision, based on the facts.


Funny, I thought that was what some CI's say they do "think and decide for the customer". However I agree I don't like people who try to think for me and make my decisions.

When I had an MX-850, I didn't think I had a serial number ---until I put the batteries back in and discoverd that the serial number sticker was stuck to one of the batteries.
It doesn't seem all that far fetched to me that someone may have lost that sticker.

But who cares, the inablitlity to get software was annoying only until I came to this forum and found out about this User unfriendly policy at URC. But once I knew about it, it didn't take long to get the proper software WITH live update (But not from URC).

In their policy statement URC says that they made the change to ensure that Consumers buy only from authorized dealers, in order to ensure that they get excellent support. --Talk about bullshit!

A friend bought his from an authorized dealer who didn't even know that you can control X-10 lighting with the 900 and the kid that he sent to do the programming did nothing more than install the IR codes plus a few learned commands. No macros and no X-10 AND NO SOFTWARE.

I, the hoppyist, had to finish the programming for him with software that I had gotten elsewhere on the web.

URC "SHOULD?" It's all about what YOU want, isn't it Rich?
Yes, this has been a point you've reiterated ad nauseum. Of course, your point is that URC shouldn't sell into the market they've chosen to sell into, but instead they should sell into the market YOU want them to sell into, because if they WERE selling into that market, your point would carry some weight. Nevermind the fact that selling into a bigger market does not necessarily translate into better profits.

Let's look at the Xbox verses the Nintendo GameCube: Microsoft went for the VASTLY larger market and, when R&D and support were accounted for, they barely broke even on their game console. Meanwhile, Nintendo sat back with everyone laughing at them for selling into the smaller "family" market. At the end of the GameCube run, Nintendo was sitting on BILLIONS in profits. I guess they should take the Rich Guy approach, throw out all that cash, and go for the larger market, huh?

Luckily, since URC is NOT selling into the market you think they "should," your point carries about as much water as fishnet stockings.


Yeah yeah sure, Rich. URC created every lie you've told about scads of people who can't get the software, and about people whose remotes completely quit functioning. URC exaggerated every ailment to the point that your argument is a rediculous farce. Rich, you say whatever it takes to get people to believe you. You'll reply that you've never told a single lie in this forum, but I invite the readers to scan through your posts to see how you really work.


The difference between you and a CI is that people come into our shops and say, "I don't even want to think about this--just make it work," whereas you are trying to convince the whole world to do as you say unless you get what you want. So yeah, I can see how you'd really not like it when someone tries to affect your decision-making process in any way.

Sincerely,
Gorignak

LOL, you are funny Gorignak, I only want URC to treat all their customers fairly, it's such a big request I know.

If URC does not treat their customers more fairly a lot of current customers won't be returning customers and all future potential customers deserve to be warned.

This one warrants its own reply:


Okay Rich, I'll bite.

You know, I know, and every other person reading this thread knows that none of us is going to convince the others to see things our way. So all this energy is being spent trying to convince newcomers to the thread. Personally, I would like to see Remote Central become a worthwhile place to visit again, and regardless of your side of the argument, no one but an idiot could believe that the argument itself is worthwhile.

You've posted over 500 times on this issue. I think I've racked up something like 40. You alone have me outnumbered over 12 to 1, and that doesn't count your buddy. I say the facts are too clouded to be found in this thread. You say the thread represents the facts. SURELY in 500 posts, you've said what you want to say.

So I offer you a challenge:
You put together your defacto post on this subject--the one that sums up your entire argument and informs people of what you call the truth. Refer to no other posters in your post. No insults. No making your argument by attacking someone elses argument. If you want to include a call to action like "write your congressman" or whatever, do that. But make your point, good and solid, on its own merit. I invite Jon and BigPapa to do the same, and I'll chime in by the same rules. By default, we know that our posts will wildly disagree.

THEN...

We all shut the hell up. Just let that last post speak for you. We'll disagree with each other's "ultimate post," but we let them stand as someone else's interpretation of the truth. We all act respectably, for once.

Now, since it's important to you that this thread be at the top of the stack because you want to "get the word out," I invite any of us to post from time to time a message that bumps the thread, with the words:

"I stand by my post on this subject:" ...then add a link to your "ultimate post

Your argument will stay at the top, easily accessible, for all newcomers to see. They can easily link to your ultimate argument at any time. It will stand side by side with arguments that both support you and defy you. If your argument carries any weight at all, people will side with you and begin to pressure URC. If people disagree, they'll make a different choice.

I'll abide by the rules of this challenge if you will, Rich. I believe the facts support my view, and in your quote above, you claim to believe the same. So stand behind the your words and let's let people make up their own minds based on the information they have available to them, not based on how strongly we can force-feed our arguments to each other.

Will you accept that challenge, Rich? Will you let the quality of your argument stand alone?

I will if you will. How about you, Jon? BigPapa, how about you? Anyone else want to be a gentleman?

Sincererely,
Gorignak

what a coincidence. A site sponsored by a panasonic online retailer that can only sell panasonic. BTW Fujitsu has one of the best pictures PLUS THE best warrantee. 90 days on the pannie aint cuttin it for me

:

the site is a joke.

Gorignak, complaints about URC will exist and probably this thread will exist as long as customers are unhappy with URC. Also this thread will most likely be near the top of the list. The only way this will likely stop is when URC corrects the problems they have created for customers.

A company does not control its distribution by punishing its customers as URC has. URC has mistreated its customers and that is the fact.


So Gorignak, I challenge you to be a gentleman and help customers put an end to these problems instead of trying to deny them.

Every review was similar. I will take Panasonic's professional line for superior picture quality and also a much better price. BTW Panasonic has a 1 year warranty and currently extends it to 5 years for free until December 31st.

I also purchased my MX-850 on eBay in February 2006, way before the new policy. I'm using the non-updateable software and it works just fine, but if anyone wants to send the good stuff my way, I'd certainly appreciate it. Since the policy has been in effect, I purchased an MRF-250 from an A/D and I would have also done so for the MX-850 if I had only known I could get a decent deal from an A/D (I didn't use these forums until many months after the purchase and just used Pricegrabber and Google like I do for every single other item I buy online). Also, and this is very off-topic, if anyone knows of a Denon A/D with good pricing (somewhat comparable to Pricegrabber, up to $100 more on an $800 street price), I'd like to purchase my new receiver from them. Otherwise, I'll just get it without a warranty and hope for the best. Thanks!

It's okay Rich. I already knew you didn't have it in you to let your point stand under scrutiny on its own. I just wanted you to demonstrate to everyone else that your goal is to be heard, not to help.

Folks, don't listen to Rich. Don't listen to me. Make some calls; visit some web sites. Talk to some happy customers, and talk to some unhappy ones. In the end, make your decision on your own intelligence, not on being force-fed the loudest opinion by the most persistent bully. I support URC, and I believe you will too if you learn the facts on your own. But if I'm wrong, then hey, at least you came to that conclusion on your own smarts.

Sincerely,
Gorignak