I inadvertently created a little private flame war between custom install guys and consumer tweakers.

quick background: about six months ago, for first time ever, i let my a/v dealer talk me into "automation" as they like to call it. i bought the RTI T2-c, which happens to be a great remote, imo. similar ergonomics to the Harmony One. one huge negative for me though:

well...RTI is programmable only by dealers, because RTI restricts the software. So that means going back to dealer for every little change...(or living with little problems, until i can aggregate them into a big list of problems). Annoying. Expensive. and no fun tweaking!

Anyhow, i understand the fundamental economics of why this exists, but i was surprised as i go to sell my RTI, that my "downgrade" choice of Harmony ONE is denegrated.

I just ordered my Harmony ONE, so I can't comment first-hand, but am i missing something? I don't need RF, so that's not a problem. It seems to have ability to program delays, repeats, etc...and has memory of on/off status of pieces. It looks great. rechargable. only $200 or so.

I actually read that some earlier Harmony products were so-so, and the programming software had some glitches...but every review on the Harmony ONE is outstanding. Only negatives being lack of RF and "high" price (not for me...my used RTI will buy me two of these babies.) If only this device was on the market before i spent $800 on the RTI....which in that world of Crestons, etc is considered cheap!

I guess i am just looking for reinforcement that this Harmony ONE will do everything i need...which is the activity macros, and then the individual controlling of each component. Maybe the last feature i mentioned ($200 price) is the real reason the "pro's" don't like it? Plus no annuity business in re-programming?

Pro's don't like it because it's low cost, high functionality, and because the end users can program it themselves... therefore installers get less work (of course they'll never be out of a job, but it's a perceived threat). Granted there's pluses and minuses to each remote type but Harmony is the way to go for anybody who wants a DIY and cheap. Crestron and RTI are nice for deep pockets but can't do any more than the Harmony. Another reason dealer's probably don't like the Harmony series is that's it's programmable over the internet only. They can't actually keep a local copy of the database. That's a good business decision for Logitech. Those dealers that do not like it probably complain about other things as well, and I'm sure Logitech isn't terribly concerned since their target market is the consumer anyways.

The Harmony One can control anything IR. It sounds like the Harmony One will do you just fine.

As for new RF models from Harmony... am I the only one thinking like this? One would logically assume that the 1000 and 890 are also reaching end of life so there's probably got to be new ones in the works, I'm sure they'll be as good or better than the One.

Activities are much more than macros, and they're all that matters.
Of course you COULD control each component individually, but the whole point of having a Harmony is to control several components - of your choice, in each of multiple Activities - at the same time.
The components come first - to tell the Harmony what they are and how they work.
THEN come the activities - to tell it which components to use and how.

Most Pro's like to do the work themselves. They want to make sure the total product represents their company. Ease of use etc.

Expect even more installers to go out of business in the current economy.

And with this comes poor build quality and a short operating life.

That is just the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard. Multivariable design and 2 way communication plus RF are huge advantages to making something bulletproof. Video sensing, 12V Triggers, Wi FI... That was profoundly ignorant.

Some find this an issue. I cannot think of the last customer that did not have an internet connection. Many installers have their own internet through a cell phone provider.

Nice and vague. Then again we can both be attacked on our objectivity. I agree their target market is the Consumer, but that Logitech Rep keeps calling and asking what he can do for us.

The Harmony One may be all he needs. I sell it. Just not many. I think it is an improvement over the 880.

You are not the only one thinking this way. It is pretty much common sense. The Ergonomic change and Touchscreen are the main differences.

Harmony's are dissed by most Pro's (and I use that word loosely) due to limited custom capabilities and build quality.

Sometimes 5 page activity list, dropped once and broken leads to service issues/wasted time, ridiculous wait for customer service even on dealer side for simple fixes, buttons stopped working like the Off sequence, Button labels wearing off in under 60 days, not the slightest water resistant, really long activity sequences, cannot control certain setups like multizones, lots of faulty discretes resulting in redundant editing, etc.

It's a shortsighted remote that works in most average consumer cases. I understand why you sold the RTI, b/c you did not want to keep paying your installer. Tell a group of dealers/installers what you did and you will be the highlight of their evening.

It's a shortsighted remote that works in most average consumer cases. I understand why you sold the RTI, b/c you did not want to keep paying your installer. Tell a group of dealers/installers what you did and you will be the highlight of their evening.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Here's my nuts and bolts decision: I was fine with my MX-500. And what i really wanted was another "universal" remote. Basically one remote that could be a clone of six others.

i have 5 sources and no real complexities. All i need is all the commands that are available to control a component...accessible when i need them. yes it's nice for my wife to be able to push a macro to "watch movie" or listen to music", etc...but i like to then have complete control over the dvd player. everything from time remaining to subtitles, etc.

i have seen the programming going into my RTI. not allowing the purchaser of this expensive remote to have access to making changes is my main problem. I want to get a PS3 for blueRay...now i gotta go back to installer to re-program...then to tweak any issues...just not for me. installers are busy. i am demanding. not a good match.

i thought the RTI was going to be a much better mx-500. in fact for me it's much worse. now i think the Harmony One is the cutting edge mx-500 for today. who knows.

I came into programming from the same point of view as you; a control freak. I liked having every command possible accessible from a "utility" page, as well as the activity based macros. I put a lot into programming the RTI systems for my clients, and fully expect that once they start using "my" program, there will be further customizations to make it "their" control. I can say that I've never had more than one trip after completing programming to update the system. But if they asked for it, I would make two trips, no charge. I want them to be happy.

It sounds like your installer may not have supplied you with as complete a program as you would have liked, and that will almost always turn you off of a particular component, in this case the RTI. It's too bad.

By the way, the first remote control I felt gave me everything I could have wanted at the time was the MX-500. I even went so far as to get the custom designed USB interface to program it on the PC. That was a great time.

I still have an MX500 for nostalgia. It is programmed but rarely used. It was a classic product.

Robster,

You're right...on paper, the Harmony One is a very capable remote. But the software is very unreliable if you like to customize (not just accept Harmony's default placement of buttons). You can make a change and a completely unrelated activity will stop working. Or, they'll update the software and if you update your remote, part of your customizations break. Call customer service and they'll say "sorry, the device got corrupted...try programming it again". That's service? Service would be, "thank you for helping us to identify the bug...we didn't tell you on the box, but this is beta ware...we'll get to fixing it if you're patient..."

It's very frustrating. You end up having to do as you did with the RTI - living with less than it should be capable of (but because of bad software, not because you have to make a trip to the dealer). Unfortunately, Harmony can get away with this because they don't have any real competition. The closest is URC, and I'm not up to speed on this, but a year ago there were issues with their support of end users (they too seem to prefer to work with installers, understandibly).

It's completely uncustomizable and the keys are made for toddlers.

So I have been working with Harmony customer service on my issues, and they are making the programming changes for me. It's not all good yet, but I sense that possibly a combination of persistence with them, and patience on my side, will pay off.

Users from other threads report that the software is much more stable with the older remotes e.g. 880 / 890.

[See another thread on this topic] I've done a load of customising a One and never once had a problem.
It's totally customisable.

... even by older toddlers.

Is it because of poor design?

Is it because of poor IR compatibility range?

Is it because of the lies in their FAQ's and marketing?

Pro's don't like Harmony remotes for the same reason they don't like Bose. Good marketing does not turn a Mediocre product into a top product. But just as their are many happy Bose users who think they have a state of the art product ("Great product: even I know which button I have to press in order to hear music) there are a lot of happy Harmony users.

As long as mediocre is for many users good enough, the marketing does the trick, both companies sell very well.

My Lord! I didn't want to post but I just had to. To imply that Harmony remotes are "mediocre" and their popularity is merely due to good marketing is a load of crap. Read the reviews by thousands of owners, here and elsewhere. Are these poor misguided souls just accepting mediocrity? Are these pathetic wretches even now huddled in their media rooms, trying to get their "mediocre" remotes to control their system properly? The real fact is; Harmony remotes control tens of thousands of systems, from basic to complex, and they do it easily and elegantly, every time.

My 880 controls a rather simple system; Sony 60A3000, Onkyo 805 receiver, Directv HD recorder, OTA broadcasts, a Panasonic Blu Ray BD30, A Toshiba A35 Hd DVD player, and an Oppo SACD player. You know what; it switches activities perfectly each and every time. It handles every input, every adjustment and, by golly, it looks good too. Now what in H*ll is "mediocre" about that. Am I satisfied with my Harmony 880? Absolutely. I don't accept mediocrity in any product and, by the way, marketing didn't lead me to my Harmony - all the fine owner reviews on Remote Central and elsewhere did.

The bottom-line is, if a Harmony One does everything, I mean everything, a user wants to control his system why on earth would he consider a remote costing two to ten times more? Is it because he made the mistake of walking into a retailer who tried to maximize his gross by denigrating Harmony remotes and recommending one with a higher margin? Is it because he's just "Joe Sixpack," some shmuck who doesn't know anything? That seems to be the implication in some of these posts and it too is nonsense. I'd argue that a system owner who buys merely on the advise of a single installer or retailer is the shmuck. I'd argue that a system owner who lets someone talk him out of a Harmony because it's "mediocre" or worse, because it's cheap, is the shmuck.

There are thousands of installations that should be done by custom installers. There are thousands of systems that need far more complex remotes. That said, probably 90% to 95% of all reasonably serious audio-video systems could get along famously with one of the Harmony remotes. Nothing "mediocre" about that.

I was an engineer in the auto industry. I spent years in dealerships and watched hundreds of car sales people in action. Never, not once, did I ever see a saleman tell a prospect, "I know you can afford that BMW 735i but I'd rather sell you a 325. It's just as good a car and it's really all you need."

Photodan - thanks for joining - and so eloquently - us toddlers.