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Topic:
why are Harmony remotes dissed by "pro's"
This thread has 110 replies. Displaying posts 61 through 75.
Post 61 made on Thursday June 5, 2008 at 15:59
oman321
Long Time Member
Joined:
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February 2006
120
That means that it is a normal situation for me to receive
customized requests from a client. "Can the unit sense
if my garage door is opened at night and shut it down
at 1AM" or, can my lights power on at 7:30PM, or can I
have my A/V system do something based on what is actually
happening vs what is SUPPOSED to be happening?


Ya the Harmony's are not designed to do what you are referring to here. They are designed as you know to elimate the typical clutter of remotes that accumulate from having several devices that IR based. Also having the option of controlling devices via RF if no line of sight is available.

Little things like RS-232, voltgage sensing, 2 way
feedback, time based events, triggers, relays, "How about
commands being stored in a processor rather than a remote?"
These are some of the things that are nto advanced in
the world of A/V. My end users pay thousands, sometimes
hundreds of thousands for thier equipment. To finish
off a system with a Harmony remote is the ultimate masacre
in my mind.

At the cost you are referring to, you damn skippy that there should be a total package offered to your client with a solution that works. But what about other folks or even your clients that want not even a basic, but a standard system of IR devices (not talking RS-232, IP based, low voltage, we all know Harmony isn't designed for this stuff) to be controlled by a single remote. I don't want to knock the CI's but you guys are forever slamming Harmony's, and that's why the OP asked the question he did. He came from an RTI setup properly or not he was tied to what he had and had to put in a service call when he needed to tweak or change something. So justifying that I have to pay close to 3-4 times as much as I would for a Harmony and then have to depend on CI to program, tweak and update the thing on my dime yet at his convenience has very little appeal to me.




A customer's remote or touchpanel is more than just a way for him or her to control
it - it's a reflection of personal preferences and care that an installer
has put into customizing the experience for the user only.
Not having the same piece of junk as Joe shmo up the
block. Selecting genre menus, customized persaonal pictures
on the remote, Room control, these are things that my
customers want. I am not leaving them with something
a geek at best buy could do by answering questions. I
think I have easily demonstrated the flaws and disadvantages
of these things. Oh, and by the way, calling me a child
is not insulting at all. Children learn and are more
accepting of change and use way more of their brain than
an adult, especially an adult like you. Now I have provided
you with examples of Logitech's shortcomings. Why don't
you tell me how I can control my systems with a "Harmony"?

The solutions you guys offer to your customers are great especially when it comes to the examples you guys are finally giving. When examples like "the guy wasn't able to turn on the devices he wanted" are given it a shows a lack of understanding the program or setting it up properly. Harmony's certainly have their place as some of you have acknowledged, they certainly cant do everything the high end stuff can do but they can centainly do everything that an IR/RF based system needs at a reasonable cost.
Post 62 made on Thursday June 5, 2008 at 16:46
smokinghot
Super Member
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August 2006
3,688
On June 5, 2008 at 15:01, hhatkin said...
Smokinghot is so good at evading the point that I surrender
to him, but must add another one to PhotoDan's quotations
from him: "biggest knuckle dragging mouth breather". I
don't know what it means but it looks both "surly" and
"hostile".

lol.... yet another quotation taken out of context. Here's how it actually was written:

On June 4, 2008 at 22:00, smokinghot said...
Even if I did, you'd find some excuse.
If Harmonys are so easy and quick to set up, then this
poor soul I'm mentioning must be the biggest knuckle dragging
mouth breather out there.

And I was talking about a guy that couldn't config his Harmony the way he wished, because of the limited options of the device. According to all the Harmony users in this thread, harmonys are the easiest thing in the world to set up. That may be the case if you're willing to live within the predesigned box that Logitech has developed for you, but what if you're some poor guy that followed the gibberish that "some" have claimed here in this forum, and thought that harmonys can do EVERYTHING. I feel for this poor guy.

I haven't evaded anything. Actually I've been agreeing with the bulk of what you and some others have been saying. I have yet to see someone man up and say that yes, Harmonys are inferior compared to the best in class. Because no matter how much you want to believe it. Harmonys are sub par compared to those high end units. edit: Some have agreed by beating around the bush, but not fully admited

I managed to silence Photodan when he asked for an example (excluding graphics) of something someone might want that a Harmony couldn't offer. Is there something you would like me to explain...? Some way you'd like me to prove yet again, that Harmonys fall short compared to top end units. If you think I'm evading, just ask.

Last edited by smokinghot on June 5, 2008 17:15.
....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Post 63 made on Thursday June 5, 2008 at 17:12
smokinghot
Super Member
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3,688
On June 5, 2008 at 15:59, oman321 said...
The solutions you guys offer to your customers are great
especially when it comes to the examples you guys are
finally giving. When examples like "the guy wasn't able
to turn on the devices he wanted" are given it a shows
a lack of understanding the program or setting it up properly.

That was me...sorry I was so vague with that. I was running off memory of his situation, and didn't want end up making things up to develop a point.

Harmony's certainly have their place as some of you have
acknowledged, they certainly cant do everything the high
end stuff can do but they can centainly do everything
that an IR/RF based system needs at a reasonable cost.

I agree, until you said "needs". That I believe that is the great divider in this. Some of the Harmony guys use this word a great deal to justify Harmonys. What someone needs varies according to the person to which you're discussing. If that need is to be able to program the remote themselves, then a Harmony would be a better choice then a RTi. Of course you'd still have URC, and Philips as two other options as well. Which can do everything a Harmony can do and more.

The Harmonys OS is what makes them great for a lot consumers. It's also the same thing that makes them fall short of the other options out there. Why some in here can't admit that is beyond me.
....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Post 64 made on Thursday June 5, 2008 at 19:22
Joe-CI
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
May 2007
183
Smokinghot,
It is not worth arguing. The second someone starts pulling your quotes intentionally out of context, you know they do not care about any sort of understanding. They just want to be right.

Ignorance is bliss for some, so let them Be Happy.

Any third party with a brain who read this will see what is going on. Some people are not hobbyists, they just want to feel they made perfect choices from day 1.
Support Your Local Dealer.
Stop Buying From the Online Guy and Ebay.
Post 65 made on Thursday June 5, 2008 at 20:21
akirby
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
March 2004
4,640
This is pointless. This is like a Ferrari salesman saying that a Honda Accord is an inferior automobile. If all I need to do is drive back and forth to work with A/C, a comfy seat and a nice radio then the Accord works perfectly. It meets my requirements and my budget - why would I want a Ferrari?

OTOH if I had the money and wanted something that was flashy, fast and different from the average commuter car, then the Ferrari is definitely for me.

The Harmony IS best in ITS class and it works perfectly for the vast majority of users who only want to control a basic home theater setup with one remote. It is NOT in the same class as the home automation setups you guys are hawking.

But if all I NEED and WANT is what the Harmony can provide, then these high end totally customized systems are needlessly complex and too expensive.

Nobody claimed that a harmony could do everything a CI system could - only that for most people it does everything that they NEED it to do. Just like that Accord. And last time I checked Honda sells a LOT more cars than Ferrari does.

Take your snobby attitudes somewhere else - we don't need them.
Post 66 made on Thursday June 5, 2008 at 23:14
Jimmy Bellagio
Advanced Member
Joined:
Posts:
January 2008
854
Nobody claimed that a harmony could do everything a CI
system could - only that for most people it does everything
that they NEED it to do. Just like that Accord. And
last time I checked Honda sells a LOT more cars than Ferrari
does.

yeah, but I don't see to many smiles on peoples faces when they are driving one.
James S. Bellagio
Post 67 made on Thursday June 5, 2008 at 23:30
akirby
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
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4,640
On June 5, 2008 at 23:14, Jimmy Bellagio said...
yeah, but I don't see to many smiles on peoples faces
when they are driving one.

Maybe not, but they'll be grinning like a Cheshire cat when they remember how much money they saved.
Post 68 made on Friday June 6, 2008 at 00:46
Joe-CI
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
May 2007
183
On June 5, 2008 at 23:30, akirby said...
grinning like a Cheshire cat

That is kind of funny and ironic ;).
Support Your Local Dealer.
Stop Buying From the Online Guy and Ebay.
Post 69 made on Friday June 6, 2008 at 05:49
smokinghot
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
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3,688
On June 5, 2008 at 20:21, akirby said...
Nobody claimed that a harmony could do everything a CI
system could -

On May 24, 2008 at 12:51, xpat said...
Crestron and RTI are nice for deep pockets but can't do
any more than the Harmony.
....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Post 70 made on Friday June 6, 2008 at 14:41
hhatkin
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2008
461
On June 5, 2008 at 19:22, Joe-CI said...
The second someone starts pulling
your quotes intentionally out of context, you know they
do not care about any sort of understanding.

If you mean me, context had nothing to do with it.
Photodan had given several examples of smokinghot's curious vocabulary. As I said, though I had surrendered the argument to smokinghot, I "must add another one to PhotoDan's quotations from him", and offered the five words that still look to me to be surly and hostile, which was the point.


On June 5, 2008 at 20:21, akirby said...
This is pointless. This is like a Ferrari salesman saying
that a Honda Accord is an inferior automobile.

Thanks akirby, I was looking for a comparison like that when I said about the "professionals":
"Those people and the people who use Harmonys must live in separate worlds, and that simply makes meaningless any comparison between Harmonys and all these remotes known only by initials."
Comparing a "flashy, fast and different" car with an "average commuter" car is pointless.
Comparing a system that can close garage doors and turn on car lights with one that switches on a TV and sets a DVD playing is pointless.

Last edited by hhatkin on June 6, 2008 14:53.
Post 71 made on Friday June 6, 2008 at 15:15
smokinghot
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
August 2006
3,688
On June 6, 2008 at 14:41, hhatkin said...
If you mean me, context had nothing to do with it.

Context has everything to do with it. How could it not...? Amazing..... Here I'll show you why:

On June 6, 2008 at 14:41, hhatkin said...
I had surrendered the argument
to smokinghot

So by that you're admitting that I'm correct with my opinion that Harmonys are sub-par pieces of crap when "compared" to high end units. Thanks for finally agreeing with me. I knew you'd see it my way once you took your ego out of the equation. :)

(sorry about the ego comment, but I was trying illustrate a point. Wasn't trying to offend)

You take a section of text, remove the context around the statement and any conclusion can be drawn. My main focus in this thread is the misdirection that some (that didn't include you at the time) Harmony users are displaying in thier replies. If they'd just correct these misguiding statements, and own up to truth, there would be no point furthering this discussion. As it is, they seem to be "evading" this admittance. I'd say mostly out of pride...ego is a bitch to deal with when your called out on it.

Comparing a system that can close garage doors and turn
on car lights with one that switches on a TV and sets
a DVD playing is pointless.

Yep it sure is.... But it's still done in here for some reason.

Last edited by smokinghot on June 6, 2008 15:21.
....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Post 72 made on Friday June 6, 2008 at 15:43
beckp
Founding Member
Joined:
Posts:
May 2002
96
CI's don't like it because Harmony is intruding on their livelyhood. I love how it resorts to mud slinging and name calling. Thought the CI's are supposed to be professionals?

Yes, they will still be those out there that want the latest and greatest and money isn't an object. For many of us, paying someone $200 or more to plug in a HDMI cable or get our remote to work with a few pieces of equipment is over the top.

Reminds me of iTunes & iPod, are they the best technology/hardware? Nope, but they are simple as all get-out and get the job done. Same for Harmony's ...love mine and it's not crap!

If you are a CI'r why are you lurking here at the Harmony site, surely you don't recommend those pieces of crap to any of your clients.....
Post 73 made on Friday June 6, 2008 at 16:07
akirby
Super Member
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Posts:
March 2004
4,640
On June 6, 2008 at 15:43, beckp said...
If you are a CI'r why are you lurking here at the Harmony site

Because all of their potential customers are at home setting up and using their Harmony remotes without them.
Post 74 made on Friday June 6, 2008 at 16:11
smokinghot
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
August 2006
3,688
On June 6, 2008 at 15:43, beckp said...
CI's don't like it because Harmony is intruding on their
livelyhood. I love how it resorts to mud slinging and
name calling. Thought the CI's are supposed to be professionals?

That's short sighted, but you're right. It's more so having to deal with customers that want remotes that are hard to support. One free service call (nightmare included) for something you didn't want to support in the first place is enough to irritate any business owner.

Yes, they will still be those out there that want the
latest and greatest and money isn't an object. For many
of us, paying someone $200 or more to plug in a HDMI cable
or get our remote to work with a few pieces of equipment
is over the top.

I hear ya there. And I'm in that same category as you.

Reminds me of iTunes & iPod, are they the best technology/hardware?
Nope, but they are simple as all get-out and get the job
done. Same for Harmony's ...love mine and it's not crap!

I regret saying that, (crap I mean). It's far too strong a word to use in this senistive forum. I don't know if you read the entire thread or not, but I stand by my opinion that Harmonys are great... for what they are. That being entry level, limited, wizard based remotes. Apples to apples in price, you could still find other options that could do more, but not necessarily be as easy to set-up. Lets not confuse "set-up" and "use". The most difficult remote to set up can be just as end user friendly as any Harmony. "Crap" or "sub-par" or "inferior" (originally used by a harmony poster) throw everyone into a defensive posture. Maybe I should have said "at a different level than"...? Which by definition is "sub-par" or "inferior"...crap was a bad word, too easily taken harshly. I apologise to all Harmony owners for that one.

If you are a CI'r why are you lurking here at the Harmony
site, surely you don't recommend those pieces of crap
to any of your clients.....

Not a CI...diy'er like most in here. I noticed the thread heading and knew it was going to be a good one. I Read through the beginning and came across some very misleading posts by a Harmony user. When this poster was called out on his very ill informed statements, other Harmony users jumped in and we ended up where we are now. As it is now... I'm just responding to those who feel I'm either "evading" or being a "troll". It's really gotten out of hand.... I've been taken out of context by some to try and prove I'm something other than a RC user who's trying to keep the casual user from being misguided.
....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Post 75 made on Friday June 6, 2008 at 16:13
smokinghot
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
August 2006
3,688
On June 6, 2008 at 16:07, akirby said...
Because all of their potential customers are at home setting
up and using their Harmony remotes without them.

Hey bud,

On June 5, 2008 at 20:21, akirby said...
Nobody claimed that a harmony could do everything a CI
system could -

On May 24, 2008 at 12:51, xpat said...
Crestron and RTI are nice for deep pockets but can't do
any more than the Harmony.

No rebuttal...?
....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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