Whatever... I'm not going to take the time to find the thread for you. Even if I did, you'd find some excuse. If Harmonys are so easy and quick to set up, then this poor soul I'm mentioning must be the biggest knuckle dragging mouth breather out there.


Granted. I use the word "norm" to represent what Logitech thinks you should be doing.


Obviously it does, or Harmonys would be just as flexible as other non-graphical remotes, and they're not.


really...?


How's that one...?


Here's one... many others in multiple threads, but again I've spent too much time in this forum as it is, I won't paste endless links here for you. I for one won't waste any more time trying to educate those who wish to remain ignorant.


Have fun boys.

"I don't mean to knock Harmonys" - "Harmonys are crap....plain and simple"

These two statements in your same post. Incredible.

"Why these threads get so out of hand are the severe reactions by both sides, CI and diy'er"

These threads get out of hand because of posts such as yours. "Joe Six-Pack" - "Uneducated" Hmmm, and then, "But that's my opinion, and it isn't wrong. Just different than some" Just your opinion, huh?

"Don't be made to feel like a fool, because you made the right choice for you. But don't make yourself a fool by trying to pass off to others, and there by convincing yourself what you bought is the greatest thing going." Most Harmony owners here are annoyed by statements such as yours. A reaction is warranted, though likely a waste of time.

Harmony users have tried, to no avail, to explain why they like their remotes and have met with general hostility from a rather surly few. How about the Harmony haters tell all the "uneducated toddlers" what they want from a remote that a Harmony One won't do and please, no reference to custom icons.

Be annoyed all you want. But if your going to quote someone maybe you shouldn't edit the context around said quote. (FYI there is function on RC to make that easy for you) Harmony owners are so defensive. Joe six pack isn't an insult. It's simply a term used to detail the average consumer. Someone who claims that Harmonys can do anything any other remote can do must be uneducated in what other remotes can do. Again, not an insult. Being uneducated in something isn't a fault, or make you stupid. You simply don't know something.


You don't need to explain...although you always seem to feel the need. I haven't been hostile (if you're including me in that statement). I've just pointed out the obvious. Sorry...that should be: the obvious to those who actually know what other remotes can do.


K... well, I'm not a Harmony hater, and I don't think anyone that owns a Harmony is an "uneducated toddler". But how about the ability to control and view a IP based camera.

i wish i could finish this thread....since i started it!

maybe i think my new harmony one is far better than my RTI t2-c is because mine was programmed poorly. and there was nothing i could do about it. if rti made a consumer programmable remote, i would have bought that probably.

once again the only conclusions i get from this thread are:

CI guys don't understand what it means to be locked-in. i mean they do understand it exactly from their own business vantage-point, but don't appreciate it from the customers point of view. in my case, the rti remote basically required me to be in much closer contact than i wanted. any tweak required a dealer visit. new equipment, or just re-configuration required a dealer re-programming.

now if the rti was $500 with 2 years of unlimited free and instant tweaking, then a value proposition could be made. but at 1 to 2 grand, plus open-ended service calls, it becomes not worth the money nor aggravation. what would the average CI feel if i said i needed him to come over immediately because i want my volume control to raise or lower volume 3 ticks for each click. also it annoys me than a new station i am liking in on page 3 of my favorites. you get the point. a CI cannot economically satisfy a diy'er....

i have spent $40 grand on my home theater electronics, but control it fine with a $200 universal remote. and if something doesn't work...hell, i can even get up and manually push a button.

i know too much about this business to "trust" CI's. The same guy who sells his client an elegant automation device also can be the same guy who buys his connectors from home depot and says there's no way to get rid of a ground loop.

and when i want to buy a sony vw60 projector available for under $3K street price, the same CI who would need to reprogram the RTI would do his best to talk me out it. why do i need that.

its always about money...

I will answer:



With what I said earlier:

And so does a Harmony unless there is IR interference (someone walks in front of the remote, it isn't pointed at the equipment). And if that's a problem you can always get the RF version.

The place where HELP on a harmony works when those others won't is if someone has a device with power toggles and they turn it off using the OEM remote while in the middle of an activity. Now the device is out of sync with the remote's state memory and every time the remote thinks it's turning the device on, it's turning it off and vice versa.

How does the harmony fix this and other problems? It doesn't require 2-way communications. When you hit help it looks at what should be on and what inputs are selected and if it has discrete codes for those functions it will resend them automatically. Then it asks if that fixed the problem or not. If you say no then it goes through the list of devices one by one and asks if the device is on or not and if it's on the right input and it will automatically fix the problem based on the answers to those questions.

It's so simple even a 2nd grader can use it. That type of functionality is available out of the box with 30 minutes of setup. To do that on any other remote requires a LOT of code if it's even possible.

Now let's ignore the trolls and get back to helping people with problems.

Well, there's a lot more reasons than that, but...


Not an issue in other systems... once the unit is programmed and proven, the OEM remotes get put away. In deep storage. I know a lot of Harmony users that have the harmony on the table, along with the other remotes! What's the point of getting the Harmony then?



So now you are insecure enough to call us trolls? How does that help people with problems? Check the thread title - the OP asked a simple question that requires personal opinionated responses... no technical assistance was requested.

I think a big part of the real "disconnect" between the CI and end-user perceptions are not based merely on the remote itself, but on the overall perception of what home theatre automation and home automation should be in general.

CIs spend pretty much all of their time building complex systems that would make the average end-user's home system look like a tinker toy. I think the same CIs who "diss" the Harmony remotes are just as likely to look down on most of our home entertainment configurations as well. The Harmony remote is just another factor in the overall configuration that is more than suitable for the average end-user, but just doesn't fit the bill for the high degree of customization that a CI wants to do.

I've had CIs who are acquaintances of mine make pretty disparaging remarks about my choices of equipment because I didn't research into trivial matters like discrete code support for obscure functions (ie, "I can't believe you were stupid enough to buy that DVD player without confirming that it has discrete DVD tray open/close codes!").

I started my real foray into universal remotes with the MX-700 about six years ago. The MX-700 was an absolutely fantastic remote for its day, and it took some doing to get my hands on one and the necessary software to program it. Several of my friends ended up with MX-500s as a direct result of my experience with the MX-700 (most of them weren't willing to drop $1000+ on a remote at the time, so the 500 seemed like a nice compromise).

As much as I liked the MX-700, however, it had its deficiencies, not the least of which was no state memory and a relatively low WAF. Not all of the devices I used had discrete codes available, and that caused much frustration as well, and I wasn't about to go out and start replacing hardware just for that purpose.

I'm very much a tinkerer at heart, and I loved the flexibility of my MX-700, but when it suffered an accident (not completely unrelated to the low WAF :) ), I considered buying another one, but decided to look at what else was available. It occurred to me at that time that I was spending a lot of time tinkering with various things to the extend that it was interfering with my enjoyment of them. In other words, with the MX-700 I was spending more time [i]managing[/i] my remote than I was [i]using[/i] it.

My first Harmony, the basic 688 model, seemed like it would be a better fit. In those days, I bumped up against a few things it couldn't do, but I quickly realized that I didn't really [i]need[/i] to do those things -- those were just geek-style tinkering adjustments I wanted to make.

From the 688, I moved on to the 880 and 890 series, and just picked up a Harmony One this week to replace the 890 which finally died on me. I also played with a Harmony 1000 for about a week, but returned it after deciding that the touchscreen approach was not my style.

The only real negatives I've ever encountered in my personal use of the Harmony series remotes was Logitech's rather asinine decision last year to remove their first cut at "macros" (ie, multi-button functions), which has since been rectified in a much better way with "sequences" and of course the ever-present charging issues with the 880 and 890 cradles.... An issue that's been completely resolved with the 1000 and Harmony One models (in fact, when I saw the Harmony One displayed at Macworld in January, I mentioned I already owned an 880 and 890, and the Logitech guy said "Then this is all I need to show you" and dropped the Harmony One into the cradle, where it immediately charged without issue :) ).

The bottom line, IMHO, is that of course the Harmony remotes are limited, and I can understand why a CI would not want to use one (they sell a [i]package[/i], where they choose the best components to make everything work together, and the key word here is [i]customization[/i]), but to slam the Harmony remotes as being overly simplistic or only for neophyte users is unfair. Some of us can certain spend much more time with more sophisticated remotes, but using a [i]simple[/i] solution is a personal choice, because I for one prefer to spend my time doing other things than tinkering with my remote.

Sigh....no response to smokinghot's failed attempt at sarcasm. Sadly, my posts, like his, have degenerated into nothing more than troll posts. I, for one, apologize and gracefully withdraw.

The question in the thread header has been asked and answered, though I've always had trouble with the answer, "because!"

Love my Harmony!

Not once have I tried to be sarcastic. Your's and some others had their egos bursed by things I stated. I still think Harmonys are great for what they are. It's that opinion that has apparently labelled me a "troll".


Me too. That's why I don't own RTi, but it doesn't stop me from realizing that they are much more capable remotes than Harmonys. Not that, that's what you personally are saying, but I'm hoping that some of the other guys watching this thread can grasp my angle on this topic.


That would make me rethink the RTi.


Could not agree more. Well said...

When you consistently make negative statements that are either incorrect or prove that you don't really understand how a Harmony remote works - then you're acting like a troll.

Harmony users acknowledge that there are some people who want or need a totally custom solution. However, the custom installers don't seem to think the harmony is an acceptable solution and anyone who uses one is simply "settling" for an inferior product. And that is absolutely not true.

Please quote one statement that I have made that isn't true. For the record, I have yet to intentionally belittle anyone within this thread. Although only because I have pointed out facts contrary to what some Harmony users choose to believe, I have been labelled a troll.


And there are some posting in this thread that claim Harmonys can do anything, any other remote can do. That's a lie, and it's those people to whoam I'm focusing my attention. For no other reason than I don't want the general public to be mislead by what's being claimed.


That's a blanket statement. You shouldn't lump everyone in like that. I've tried not to group the knowledgeable (sp?) Harmony users together with those just trying to protect thier pride.

I agree that you're not "settling" if you purchase what's right for you. If that's a Harmony...great. The only reason I originally posted in this thread was because some tried to pass off Harmonys as being on par with the top in class control solutions in the business. That was too far fetched not to respond.

Forget everything else that has been said in this thread for a moment. Now, if I place a Harmony One beside a RTi T2-C, and school you (if I could) completely on the abilities of both. Which do you believe would be the most configurable? I'm only speaking of what these to devices can do. I know you're thinking that there's more to consider, but try to stay focused on what I'm asking. Which one is inferior? One of them has to be.

I'm not against you on this. Again, one more time, Harmonys are great for what they are, and what they can offer consumers, but they cannot be compared to the abilities of the best in class. I'm not a CI. I'm 100% diy'er, but I'm looking at this objectively.

Agreed - and well said.

Well Photodan, here I am. The name of this post is "Why are Harmony dissed by PROS". I myself am paid to professionally set up controlled lighting and high end A/V equipment. That means that it is a normal situation for me to receive customized requests from a client. "Can the unit sense if my garage door is opened at night and shut it down at 1AM" or, can my lights power on at 7:30PM, or can I have my A/V system do something based on what is actually happening vs what is SUPPOSED to be happening?

I resent you and Logitech guessing at what I am supposed to be doing and also trivializing what my clients ask for. Little things like RS-232, voltgage sensing, 2 way feedback, time based events, triggers, relays, "How about commands being stored in a processor rather than a remote?" These are some of the things that are nto advanced in the world of A/V. My end users pay thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands for thier equipment. To finish off a system with a Harmony remote is the ultimate masacre in my mind. A customer's remote or touchpanel is more than just a way for him or her to control it - it's a reflection of personal preferences and care that an installer has put into customizing the experience for the user only. Not having the same piece of junk as Joe shmo up the block. Selecting genre menus, customized persaonal pictures on the remote, Room control, these are things that my customers want. I am not leaving them with something a geek at best buy could do by answering questions. I think I have easily demonstrated the flaws and disadvantages of these things. Oh, and by the way, calling me a child is not insulting at all. Children learn and are more accepting of change and use way more of their brain than an adult, especially an adult like you. Now I have provided you with examples of Logitech's shortcomings. Why don't you tell me how I can control my systems with a "Harmony"?

This began with an enquiry as to whether a Harmony could provide
"everything i need...which is the activity macros, and then the individual controlling of each component".
No-one has proved that it couldn't, and I guess that the same would apply to the requirement of the vast majority of others.
I've learned something in this - that there is a profession of people who fix people up with remote control systems in their homes - though I still don't know what CI stands for, but don't worry, I can guess.
Those people and the people who use Harmonys must live in separate worlds, and that simply makes meaningless any comparison between Harmonys and all these remotes known only by initials.
Smokinghot is so good at evading the point that I surrender to him, but must add another one to PhotoDan's quotations from him: "biggest knuckle dragging mouth breather". I don't know what it means but it looks both "surly" and "hostile".