I am that consumer. Well no not actually that consumer. I will expect my dealer to match like with like.

I am a self-installer, all wires ran through wall cavities (brick). One conduit in concrete floor running from rack to main TV for visual plus front speakers and sub. This is for the simple reason I do not know any tradesman good enough. I am sure there are some, and they are here, but at the moment I enjoy doing the work and I am very capable of matching professional install qualities. Keyword is enjoy the install.

I will/do discuss system upgrades with my dealer, he is aware of the rest of my system. Once we have agreed some new hardware, reviews, short-list, demos, decision etc. it is down to price. I will find the best hight street price I can for the product. I expect him to match it. I will also find the best internet price of the product, I do not expect him to match it, but I do expect him to be able to get close to this price.

Unfortunately for you guys, customers have realised they do not have to pay full price for anything but groceries (even I don't haggle for these yet).

However once I have these prices I discuss it with my dealer. Both he and I are aware he doesn't have to sell and I don't have to buy. He knows I would prefer the comfort of buying the hardware for him for service reasons. Some new hardware goes wrong so it makes sense, it is harder to return to web sites than a shop.

I had a new CD player fail and they didn't have a replacement in stock because they don't stock most of their stuff. They did however lend me a CD player to get me through the weekend and the party. I got service and that is good.

I know that I get better service and advice from my dealer than a website. He knows I know. We therefore work out the price. He will match other dealers without much problem, just a quick call to check. As for intetnet sites he offers to check the products out and ask the right questions and if it is exactly the same deal as he is offering he will get closer to their price. He always charges more and I understand why, he has a store and puts in work to get the sale, they sell.

If it is not like with like then he explains what is the difference, European model, no remote etc. I then only expect him to match other dealers.

What does he get, first and last opportunity at my business for ever, my recommendations as the place to shop for serious hi-fi.

What can you guys offer. Well I would have thought the following:
System Design
Pre-Sales Support
Immediate Post Sales Support (most things go wrong in two weeks)
Long Term Post Sales Support
Advice on System Upgrades based on customer knowledge
Competitive Pricing

Competitive pricing is not $ for $

A $5000 dollar item at $3000 dollars on the web has my alarm bells ringing. A $5000 dollar item at $4500 on the web has my interest. If the best dealer price was $4800. I would expect my dealer to be $4700 or $4750. The $200 difference between the web and his price is my fee for his knowledge, demos, time etc.

So you need to judge the customer, if he has seriously judged the market, compared prices with other delears and the web and ensured like with like then you will have to drop your prices and take a smaller margin to retain his business.

If he has one price off the web then stand your ground. Or you could offer to research it for him to 'ensure it is compatible with the rest of his system'.

I work in software sales and 50% of the time I am in a competitive bid for the work so I know what it is like. Except I am a pro, I spend all my time selling, you guys are amateurs as you only spend a small proportion of your time selling. No offence meant, you guys have other more useful skill sets than me.
It is a judgement call, will the guy walk or is he bluffing? Do I want the work at the price he is suggesting? Will someone else do the work at the price he is suggesting? Are there reasons why he should give me a premium over the other guy? How much of a premium? What is the opportunity for direct repeat business and indirect repeat business? Get the right answer to all of these and you get a valuable sale.

Talk to the customer. He asks you to match the web, say no, and ask him to name his price above that level which he feels is an acceptable fee for you experience and service.

A Customer - A Bloody difficult one.

Dave

That's a pretty arrogant thing to say. You don't know who here is professional and who isn't. Pro or not why should we have to come close to internet prices when we pay close to that ourselves. Maybe you should add to the cost of the item the time your poor installer spends contacting these sites to try to meet your prices. You should do the research yourself and not waste the guys time. There really is no point in making the sale if we're going to make $15 on a $800 product. So I guess you agree with SOFTWARE PIRACY right? Well why not? I can get just about any program free these days if I want. Can you match that price? I'm not saying I agree with it, but I don't agree with ripping off the small guys either.

I understand both sides of this issue and to be honest there is not really a good solution.

The installer/retailer will always feel a little resentful by some PITA customer telling him how much he can get something somewhere else for. I try to do my own research without bothering the pros. I then use the net to get my best price. If it is something I can't find or can't do myself I call a pro get his price and either accept it or reject it but I don't ask him to lower it. I just don't think that is right. He obviously gave me that price because that is what he feels the job is worth to him. I may get a couple bids but I never ask for a lower fee. If you ask him to lower it then he may have to leave something out to still turn a profit. I would rather have it done right without skimping. I have gotten enough deals from the net that it far offsets paying a pro for good work. Plus I always buy them lunch. :)

Not true, I sell several lines that are not for sale on the internet and the manufactureres have a staff of people who search the internet for current models being sold on the internet. IF the manufacturers find the gear for sale they buy it, trace the serial numbers to the dealer who originally bought it, investigate the matter and in most situations PULL the line from that dealer. The only product that these manufacturers do sell as current models on the internet are B-STOCK at a higher price than new A-stock. I know that lots of stuff is available on E-bay but it isnt usually sold from a dealer right out of current stock.

As for internet sales, in general, you may save money but at what cost to your local dealer. If you have ever gone and 'kicked tires' at your local non-chain a/v store and had a good time, then support them by making your purchases there. If the consumers keep buying online or haggling with the local guy about prices being better online they will find that the only place to purchase gear will be online and all the knowledge of the professionals will be lost as we wont be around to install what you cant, service what you didnt buy from us, and tell you what upgrades you need to make because we wont have a job. Period.

Peace

Customers who refuse to pay for work that needs to be done, are asses, I totally agree. I wasn't aware of the difficulty I would have in getting the system installed until after it was ready to bring in the equipment. I couldn't buy it myself, I had to go through an installer. Plus I know nothing of Panasonic phones... I was very willing to pay my installer whatever he wanted to do what I needed done. If I had to go through the whole thing again, I would have had him pull all the wires for the phones. My work was meticulous and he was pretty impressed and was pretty sure there'd be no problems, I told him I'd pay him for time and materials to verify that the lines were good and we agreed that any problems with the system originating with the wiring wouldn't be covered under warranty. Small price to pay to have a nice phone system (Panasonic 624), warranteed by him, installed by a professional, and without having to re-run perfectly good wires. The phone wires were ALSO run in accordance with CAT5 standards, so they're better than they need to be. I enjoy doing as much as I can myself. I'm not a tight-ass, I'll pay whatever I have to, but I do like to save as much as I can. I enjoy unpacking that new piece of equipment. I'm like a little kid when UPS comes and brings me more toys. I like setting it up, hooking it up, running wires, soldering connectors, perfecting everything, and enjoying the final result. I don't want to miss out on what I enjoy. But I'm also not the type of person to go tell a professional what's up, without knowing any better myself.

ItsColdInMN...There's nothing wrong with the way you do that. You seem like you've got a head on your shoulders. Our customer was just a cheap ass.

In Response to Goodfellow and others like him.... I am new to this forum thing, having used remote central as a tool to help with programming. But i thought that it was for us pros not the so-called savvy consumers..so if avgenius and mcnasty did not fill you up enough here is my reply. I also have a few customers like you. I bet what you don't know is that (your dealer) can't stand dealing with you, or others like you.. who are destined to turn all us custom guys into Lowes and Home Depot OHH but with MercedesE-Class service. Your dealer you say gets your business for life for dealing with the aggrevation. As a dealer who sells 50% of the time and installs the other 50% I tend to jump through hoops for (my customers) who never ask for a discount but only expect me to jump on the way up sorta speak. And guess what, they are already my customers for life. For service not for price. And because they always pay on time and never ask for a discount, they get the better service and returned phone calls. Bet (your dealer) did'nt tell you that...

I have a new term for internet shoppers - "Wipes". I know you have all seen the ads on TV. Everything seems to be comming out in a handy-dandy, single-serving-size, instant, disposable, form. It all started with the "Swiffer", now there are people too lazy to spray Armor All onto a cloth.

The builders in our area are no better. To them A/V wire is just as easily pulled by electricians. Now I have nothing against that trade...we in fact need them. After all, without power, none of our stuff would work. But in the years I've been doing this, I've seen only one electrician wire only one house correctly for L/V. It's the customer who ends up paying more when we have to fix the problems. (Note to consumers reading this: If your electrician [or security system installer] is not going to hook up your gear for you - DON'T LET HIM PULL YOUR WIRING!! I can't tell you how many jobs I've been on where inadequate and/or substandard wiring was pulled by hacks).

Way too many customers are being turned into wipes by the stupid prices available on the Information Super Cul-de-sac. Yes they can research a product, compare features, download owners manuals, even come to a place like this for advice on programming the remote. But they can't LISTEN to the product. There is no technician who will say "yeah, I've crawled around inside that TV and it's nothing but a cheaply built piece of @#$%". There will not be an installer to tell them that the equipment they are buying will not work in their situation or with other gear they're buying. All this takes experience - YEARS of experience.

Now to the wipes, there are a few things they take for granted. Number one "ALL GEAR MUST SOUND THE SAME". Therefore, they don't need to hear it. Number two "ALL TV's COME FROM THE FACTORY PERFECTLY ALIGNED". So that ISF calibration stuff is just a bunch of hokey. Number three "FACTORY TECH SUPPORT WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO HELP". So the ability to call a store and speak to someone who has actually hooked up the equipment is overrated. I could go on...

It is up to us, the Pro A/V guys, to make known that these assumptions are based on BS, advertising hype, and undereducated Super A/V Store salespeople. The internet will not do it for us.

I wanted to make note to the person that said they install internet stuff for $150/hr. Was it worth it? We've bumbed heads here for a while on this subject. I even made a sudo (sp?) contract that stated how far our company would go for service in the future. It basically said that we'd install the item for Bagillion $/Hr which had a 2 hr minimum and if the installer had to teach the "wipe" how to use it, the rate was higher because that required more brain power...It also stated that in no way were we responsible for any service on that product, etc, etc, etc. That's where we find a problem with installing INet stuff. You bend over backwards (and take it up the ace...keep reading) to schedule an installer, do the work CORRECTLY, then in a short period of time get tons of calls "I don't know how to work it, It doesn't work the way it supposed to (the way the internet described...Dumbasses!!!sorry.) You hooked it up wrong, blah blah, blah!!!!!!!!" Thats when you are stuck with them FOR LIFE! We have made the decision to not only stand above the internet, but also rid ourselves with that can o worms to not do Inet sale.

Here's my last question to my fellow pros: How do you handle this situation? Do you be rude? How can you put it in a way that this possibly future customer will eventually learn the hard way, but buy from you next time? Will this person EVER learn their lesson?

As we all know, every client, and every situation will be different, so there will never be a "clear cut" answer to each case. It really depends on your business model.

Almost everyone who enters this profession with the intent of making a living out of it, will always deal with labor only jobs as a way to get started. I know we did. We started out of the back of a truck, installing equipment purchased from some place (Big A/V chains, Inet purchased equipment). Over time, we settled ourselves into the niche we are in today.

Our operation is by appointment only, so there are no walk-in tire-kickers. We've had to implement this policy so that we could focus on clients and give them our undivided attention. This policy has worked extremely well for us.

Though we do still get a small share of "shoppers" that make an appointment. At that point with our showroom, finished client system pictures (which show many phases of the project and the detail of work involved), and the explanation of what our services are, and what we do. That the equipment we sell is part of our service and our selection of equipment helps make up a reliable, and enjoyable system. With that, most don't have a problem with our proposals

Those who still wish to puchase elsewhere, are thanked for stopping by to visit, are wished good luck, and are assured that if they wish to aquire our services in the future, we will be more than happy to oblige.

JJP

I may be a little arrogant, but when a customer wants me to meet an internet price, I tell them thank you for your time. When they say "Aren't you going to try and meet their price, I tell them that my knowledge on what they want and how it will be installed is worth alot more then any internet dealer. 4 out of 5 times they agree, and I get the job. For the 5th guy, who needs the agrivation!

>>Here's my last question to my fellow pros: How do you handle this situation? Do you be rude? How can you put it in a way that this possibly future customer will eventually learn the hard way, but buy from you next time? Will this person EVER learn their lesson?

Never be rude; it's not professional, and lowers you in the eyes of the client. Be polite, explain your position in one or two sentences, tell 'em you are a better deal for them because you will be there after the installation is complete, answer phone calls, deal with problems and so forth because That Is How You Make Your Living, not by Selling Boxes. Then go silent. If the customer presses on the topic further, tell them that's really the entire story, and if they need you in the future, please call. Every client I have is a better negotiator than I, and if I go down that road I will loose.

Why cant the old lady who bought a portable tv with no transport get it delivered free? or if it goes wrong in its guarantee period why doesn't the nice man who used to come out ,come out and sort it out for free,like the old days? Why wont the sales man in the store advise her which one is the best small portable tv for her ? The sales man seems to hide in the back of the store but soon leaps out and serves a young couple looking at a plasma ..Why the bad service?
Answer. Theres no money in it. portable tvs are so cheap customers pick them up with a tin of beans at there local supermarket for £50 .The specialist retailer cant charge £100 for the same product because it would get consumer tv programmes on its back .so who loses out..the customer .the tv may be bought by a relative carted back from the supermarket auto tuned with the channels in a strange order(UK) and if the old dear has a problem the staff get the instruction book out and say they cant figure it out or we will give you a full refund .This does not solve the old dears problem she still wants a tv..so why the little story you may ask well .If enough customers buy just on price and it drives the prices so low that the service price so vastly out prices the product then consumers dont tend to buy it. And who loses out.. the customer .
Soloution. pay a fair price for the goods .pay afair price for the service but dont screw the price so low that in the future when you need help or a quality job that there isnt a company out there to do what you want. I have and still install equipment people have bought elsewhere they are charge more than if they bought the equipment from me .The profit in the equipment allows me to do the install cheaper i dont hide this fact but i do tell the customer if they buy the gear elsewhere that it is there resposibility to return the goods to who ever if there is a fault with it or if Sky is involved that they have to ring to swap channels from one card to another etc .Often this is enough for them to pay a little extra than the internet price as there own time is valuble in pounds ,where before i pointed out the downsides my time obviously wasnt!
On another note each cutomer is different some want Price, some want service ,some want an experience,some want it all and some need manners !if you start with an attitudue you will be ripped off or ignored i ignore them but i know a few who do the other

The disappointment of poor quality and service is remembered long after the cheapest price is forgotten.

A few of my buddies tell me that I am nuts to pay the prices I pay for my equipment and services (installation, programming, etc.) They say that there isn't any difference. But go listen to their systems and look at their RPTV's and you can tell that there is certainly a difference. Most people don't even know that an RPTV has to be properly converged. My dealer took more than an hour just setting up the TV!I am in the lighting business and I am damn good at it. But when it comes to custom installation of high end components, I have no training or credentials. And I figure that if I am going to spend the money for Madrigal gear, Revel speakers and an Elite RPTV, why the hell not pay someone to install it right, using high quality cables and wires? I'm not talking about sitting a new DVD player in the closet and plugging in the existing cables, I'm talking about setting up the entire system properly.

I buy all of my gear from one dealer, and that dealer has done all of the wiring and installation in my current home and previous home. If something goes wrong I can call them out to fix it. That peace of mind is worth plenty.

Well said!!
It's the clients that can foresee this that will keep us in business.
I guess it comes down to a client by client evaluation. Those with plenty of money usually don't have alot of time and vice versa. So probably what I've been experiencing is the "bluff". I'll be putting my foot down much sooner and be requesting proof of I-deals so that I can call their bluff and work with them for reasonable margin.
My stand will be (and for the most part has been) most of what has been mentioned. Service, service, service, and work with reasonable clients for a reasonable margin.
Cmack