Dear MrMcNasty et al,

I put a long explanantion on yesterday but it vanished into the ether after I sent it. Time does not allow me to repeat all of it and other comments have raised other issues.

In short I qualified the Pro Sales with a 'No offence meant', clearly some was taken. Sorry.
I spend all my time selling software, no installs, no accounts, no research into the products as we don't buy them in. I therefore will have more experience selling and become more proficient at it (Assuming level playing field, equal iq, tenancity, drive etc, which not knowing all of you I can only assume).
I just wanted to express from sales experience that it is down to judgement call, are they a bluffer with one web price just trying to drive your prices down, in which case hold. Or are they well researched do they actually have a better offer, and do you need to lower your prices to match them, if you want their business.

As for the comment regarding software piracy, I don't break into the warehouse and steal stuff and ask the delaer to match a price of $4.95 for a crowbar. We do often lose the consultancy part of the deal to independants who offer a cheaper service to configure our software. That annoys us sure but we can't stop it.

We work solely in the B-to-B environment and never deal with a home consumer. Maybe we expect that everyone will be a hard nosed bugger who will drive down our prices, use competitiors to drive down our prices, anything to save a dollar etc. Do you expect the home consumer to be different, not want to drive down your prices, pay what you first ask, even if he is head of purchasing for a large multi-national. Not a realistic expectation I would have thought.

I do all of my own research and it is up to my dealer. If I beleive the products are identical then he can reduce his price to compete in this competive world or if he wants to check it out first then he can. Only once has he proven that the product was not all it cracked up to be and this was based on Stock Levels, they had none and couldn't tell him when they would have some. When I had checked they did have some. He got his price, matched only to the best local dealer.

As for THXRix,

Obviously I didn't get enough. I called my dealer and asked him and you are wrong, he said he really liked my business and me, he also said that I had an attractive wife, I was good looking etc etc. Oh bugger, because it is a consumer to dealer relationship then he is hardly likely to tell me I am an ass, so that doesn't prove everything. B-to-B we can all drive costs as low as we can. but B-to-C we should pay as asked. Well most folks have realised that they are apending $ and they can drive down their costs. Do you all pay the full asking price for a new or used car? Anyone shop at Walmart or do you all go to you corner store?

Why should your industry get special treatment.

And yes this forum is for pro's however the topic led me to beleive it was something I could contribute to. I often see you guys commenting in the other forums, we all thank you for this, and it is often nice to be able to put something back in even if it is controversial. You will not see me commenting on which control system to use, or how do IR signals get affected by refractions from swimming pools as I have much experience of this. Sorry if my comments are unwanted, I think that is not the case, my comments might be controversial and you may hope they aren't true but that doesn't mean they are unwanted.

CMack,

my point exactly it is client by client. If they are a bluffer hold, if they are well informed and have a better deal then either decide you want that business at that price and match it or prove you are worth more.

System Design
Pre-Sales Support
Immediate Post Sales Support (most things go wrong in two weeks)
Long Term Post Sales Support
Advice on System Upgrades based on customer knowledge

It is the same for businesses the world over.




I do not think I am unreasonable on my dealer, I feel that I am a valuable customer. He/you may not agree but I cannot affect that. I do not earn so much that do not need to drive down the cost of every purchase I have made. I will be loyal for good service and reasonable pricing.

I cut the cost of my new car so low the dealer admitted he would make $0 on it. Does he hate me, no, why not? Because after three years I have spent more than double on servicing it than on the car due to the high miles I do. He has already indicated that when it is time to swap it he will give me a new one at cost to retain my business.

Expect costs to be driven down, just decide if you want/need that business.

My thoughts are not that different to most of those here.

yes and if you find a dealer who can service your car cheaper ,you will take your business there and the dealer goes bust leaving a few hyper markets left and cheap service garages and due to the lack of margin no one who is focused on which car will suit you. oh of course there is the magazines you can read up on or specialist forums on the net you could search for info on which car to buy in the future.Thats alright then isnt it every ones happy! apart from the dealer who sold you a car for $0 who went bust but what if you want to pop in for a dealer only part at your local dealer oh thats a shame he's not here any more wonder what happened to him he was such a nice bloke and ever so cheap!

marcmc, Thanks for the input, I wish all our clients in this industry were like you.Cmack keep at it. Our industry can't go the way of the car stereo...So stay strong and keep at it. As a business owner for 5 years, and 12 years in our business. I know you will not get rich in our industry. And sometimes you have to take crap you do not enjoy, because rent, payroll, and that vendor are breathig down your neck, force you to take on work. Work you would sometimes rather not do.You will eventually have to get to a place,where you don't have to chase the carrot. But with today's economy, and depeneding on your market, who know's when that will be. Tenacity is the key, stay hungry, stay aggressive , and never give up.And you will become the dealer in which other dealers are compared..

Only if it is a cheaper Main Dealer which is unlikely as they almost price fix between themselves. With new cars you need to get them serviced by a Main Dealer to maintain warranties.

Besides we are normally stuck with only one Main Dealer per car company per town so it would take considerable effort to get it done elsewhere and he knows that when he sells me the car. A Main Dealer in another town is unlikely to collect and return my car for the service.

However he takes the bigger picture Car at £17000 with no profit + Four Services a year at £600 for 3 years with profit is better for his business than no sale. It was a question of by Brand A or Brand B and they know they will get the servicing deals.

The same analogy surely holds true for you guys.
Amp
TV
Speakers
Cables
DVD
and Install
Well if they find the Amp cheaper elsewhere then you may need to match and lose the profit on that item to gain the rest of the business. But I pointed out that you could check that they were comparing apples with apples if you do not want to match. Also that one offer from the web should result in you holding your ground.

I do not want you guys to go bust, bankrupt or starve your kids.

However you did not respond to the question.

Did you pay the full asking price for a new or used car?
What about your house?
Buy a vacuum cleaner and ask for free dust bags?

As a dealer do you negotiate with your suppliers?

Do you expect us 'the consumer' to just lie down and pay what you want.

No Offence Meant - Dave

This house isn't in Lakeway by chance is it?

I am a tainted consumer.

I watched a friend pay whatever the dealer asked because of the dealers supposed experience and knowledge. This was a full FPTV system with 5.1 sound and Niles control. The projector was installed by their "ISF Tech" who probably just took the seminar and had no real experience. Three years later the thing still looks terrible. I feel that my friend would have been better off researching the stuff himself and just found someone to install and calibrate.

Now I am sure that I will be told that this was just a bad dealer, and you are probably correct. But I feel that just by being an educated consumer, I could have built a better system than our local "expert" for less money. This is what some of you seem to describe a problem customer.

I am willing to pay for "service". There must be value added and I will pay a premium for that. I will not use dealers who are arrogant and rude, and I don't think they will last long anyway.

I don't think I am your average joe costomer either, most things that I have bought over the internet I could not get locally, and I bought with the realization that if I couldn't make it work, I wasn't going to be able to call my local dealer.

To me the attitude present in a few of the dealers here is what drives me towards the internet. You can't sell me service and still be rude in the same sentence. If my sales are unwelcome, so be it.

Mike,

I am sorry that you haven't found a good dealer in your neck of the woods. A good custom dealer knows that a "do it yourselfer" can refer a lot of business his way. If you are interested in getting a referral to a good dealer, check out the CEDIA web site. Although being a CEDIA member does not guarantee a great dealer, it certainly indicates that the dealer plans to be around for a few years. If you would like a personal recommendation, give me a call. I know some great dealers in many areas of the world.

I agree with you that there is a lot of defensive posturing going on in this thread. Custom installers have always had to deal with potent negotiators, many of our customers earned the money to afford a custom installation by negotiating far bigger deals than a home theater!

To my fellows in the business, take heart. Good negotiating skills can be learned! The important thing to remember is that negotiating price doesn't have to be unpleasant. Remember, just like Mike P has said, all potential customers are looking for "service" and value. You need to learn to pleasantly communicate your value.

Here's two books I recommend:

Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In
by Roger Fisher, William Ury, Bruce Patton

Getting Past No: Negotiating Your Way from Confrontation to Cooperation
by William Ury

If there is enough demand, I will propose a class on this to CEDIA. Let me know what you think!

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

I agree with the general consensus here that one should NEVER give an outright cost reduction to a client. Tell them "no" and you'll gain instant credibility and respect. I have considered one thing, though, and was wondering if anyone else has tried this. My idea is to decrease the price of equipment by say 10% while simultaneously raising the installation price. Our installation prices are associated with each piece of equipment and show up as a single line item for the system. People primarily tend to shop the equipment prices. Upon doing this they will find our prices very reasonable. If they ask about the installation we can then start talking about all the service issues, which is where we want the conversation to be. BTW we do not sell eqipment without installation. Any thoughts?

In the UK you Cant price Fix its illegal we dont even have a recomended price for main stream hifi and TV any more so you dont have a guide to work down from because the recommend price was seen as price fixing so now some retailers put the price stupidly high for the required legal time and then show a massive saving when they drop the price, again watch dogs not serving the customers needs at least when we had a RRP you always knew that you could work from that down and

Dave i think you would be a good customer honest and straight forward some customers demand you explain everything thats required to satisfy there brief and after several free appointments you never here from them until some thing goes wrong with the system they bought from the net and installed by a mate .Do i charge a fortune to sort it out? No i cant i'm not that type of guy i also see the big picture and rely on recommendations to give me more business what i do object to is that they often dont give you a chance to compete with the on the net deal.we all want a deal thats not the point, my point is dont just shop on price that just a small part of solving a customers needs

Thon if the customer buys the equipment from me the install will be cheaper the profit on the goods allows it.but your way makes more sense the overall cost is the same but shows greater percieved value as i have no problems justifying my installation costs ,this works as long as you do not just sell the equipment of course i like that suggestion, i like it a lot!

I understand what you meant, but if you told your wife "No offence honey, but you look fat today" I bet she'd get offended. All I meant to say was this...This feild is not just installers and business owners that do the sales and install all wrapped into one job. There are a lot of companies in our field that do have fulltime salesmen. So that would make them no less a pro than you.

How do you know some of these online companies aren't selling stolen equipment? Some of them are selling it for a lower price than the manufacturer would like. My problem with the internet price matching is that I have literally seen items online for the same price (and sometimes cheaper) than what we pay for it. When a customer expects us to price match (or even come "Really Close"), that tells me that the customer doesn't value our time to place the order, and 80% of the time go pick it up at our supplier and bring it tho their front door. If you buy a 40" Sony WEGA online and get a great deal, are they going to put it where you want in your house? No...they won't. And neither will the UPS or FedEx Guy, because the TV weighs 286 Pounds. But we put it right where it goes. We've hauled 36" WEGA's up to the 3rd and 4th floors of old Browntones in Boston. I don't know if you've ever been in one, but trust me it isn't fun. Enough of my tangent...All I mean to say is you are paying for the service also.


I do try to pay as little as I have to, but I do like the retailer to make at least a little. This subject has just really been a sore spot on my ass lately, because I see my boss constantly get raped by clients to the point where the job truly isn't worth doing. I think the only reason he does take these jobs is because he wants these people to tell there friends how great he is. Clients chisel our prices down, then they hit our labor time, and then I get yelled at for going over bid. But you know what? I would rather go over bid and do the work right. Instead of rushing and not doing it right.

I have nothing against you posting your opinion, if you didn't then I would've never had the chance to vent. I'm not attacking you...just voicing my opinion.

Dear Mr. Goodfellow,

Here are my answers to your questions.

Question #1:\
No, I did not pay asking price for my used vehicle, however, when I called the individual to inquire about the price posted in the local paper, he informed me that he actually wanted less so I purchased the vehicle. I did not haggle with him nor did I price shop him using the internet. The asking price was fair and he had all service records. When a price is asked it is for a reason. Prices are set by businesses/ individuals for profit and that is what keeps the economy flowing.

Question 2:

Yes I paid full price for my house I recently built, however, the builder was willing to throw in some "extras" since I did not try to haggle with him over the base price(all changes had to be paid for in full at time of change/addition). I felt that the price was fair as property values in the area are increasing rapidly and I will make back more than my initial investment. A home purchase is very different than a Home Theater in that you cant order a home on the internet and expect it to arrive in 7 to 10 working days.

Question 3:

My vacuum cleaner doesnt use bags, maybe its time to update your vacuum. I bet you'll find a good deal on the internet, probably cheaper than Wal-Mart.

Question 4:

Suppliers set a price based on the profit they need to stay in business, we set our prices based on what we need to stay in business. NO you can not negotiate with a supplier to provide pricing that makes you competitive with the internet, it wont happen, as they wont make any money and you wont be able get the product any longer, hampering your ability to do business.

Question 5:

No person here is trying to rape a customer on price, we are all just trying to make a living and the internet is making this harder to do, you should understand this being in software sales. Our experience is valueable to some consumers and not to others, the inherent problem with the internet sales of electronics is that it devalues my profession and I take that personal. If you think this is an easy job, ask your dealer to let you install with him on your 'holiday' from work, then tell us all that internet sales can make the world a better place for ALL consumers.

Questions for you:

Do you negotiate the amount you pay for dinner at a nice restaraunt? How about the tip?

Work done by your doctor? The price of a CT scan or MRI? The cost of a hair cut?

Since I am trying to be absured, I hope you see my point. Not everything in every field is negotiable and service oriented industry shouldnt be, a professoinal is a professoinal and should be compensated in a manner that allows them to stay in business without pressure from unfair pricing.

Good Day Sir.

Amen McNasty, Amen.

This message was edited by avgenius1 on 10/16/02 19:52.02.

Thanks avgenius1, I couldn't say it better myself...

Excellent way to put it. I totally agree, and I'm just a consumer.

I got in to this business because i love electronics , enjoy installing and most of all solving peoples problems the amount of satisfaction of a job well done and to see happy customers makes it worth while and if i can man a living out of it great .my expectations of my business are just that I'm not trying to take over the world with a big chain of stores but just make a decent living .I sincerly mean that.Most of my customers can and do see that .this attitude of that every company is trying to rip the customer off is stupid i know i could charge a hell of a lot more on certain jobs and could justify the costs. and my bank manager would tell me do it but i dont why? I can't explain it i just dont think it's right to charge more than a fair price in line with my costs,we have all been ripped off at some time i just think if i treat customers fairly most of them will treat me the same, which they do except for the ones who just see the bottom line.
Avgenius1 i have copied down those questions and memorised them .Fantastic retort! It is unfair pricing and consumers are not comparing like for like even if it is the same product.

Not sure were lakeway is, the house is 30 min. north of Houston.

I'm sure all of us can appreciate any and all input here. I personally like the "consumer" perspective just as much, helps us get in your head a little. Which in turn may get us a little closer to our objective. The sale!!
I know that the info in this thread will prove to be valuable to me and my future in this business, as we all know the WWW is just getting started.
CMack