I thought we should move this from Eric Johnson's Final Install Stories thread. In it, ChicAugur gave a great dissertation on Unions and I thank him for providing that perspective. It all started with my story on being hassled for being a business owner by a bunch of unhappy Union guys.

I see the past need for Unions and appreciate what their sacrifices have provided for all of us today. I see that they provide a stand against those who would hire cheap labor and keep their workers untrained. I also see a bunch of really lazy jerkoffs being protected from having to work hard and being paid a good wage to stand (or sit) around. I know a lot of Union guys and I tire of hearing the BS. It is a known fact that anyone who works too hard is told to slow down and be like everyone else. My favorite electrician broke away and started his own business and was ostracized for doing so.

ChicAugur posted that to be proper you should be raising the bar... That I do. My guys are paid above Union scale, I train them (and pay them while they're at CEDIA or local trainings), I give them benefits, they purchase AV equipment at my cost, etc. etc. I feel I run a legitimate business and I put a hell of a lot of time and effort into it. Thats why it pisses me off so much when they cut my wires and hide the cuts inside a hole between studs (shorted some of them, wired some out of phase and left others unconnected), kick my expensive drill, and basically make me feel like my ass is about to get kicked... all while eight of them are doing the work that three hard workers could do in a day.

I like the argument that started in the other forum. It is informative and deserves its own place... besides, it makes Eric look too hard for what he started the post looking for.

The biggest union problem is minimums. If you want or need to hire a union electrician fine. If you need more than one you have to also hire a foreman. The foreman can't work. He has to supervise. he doesn't even bring tools to the site? It's getting out of hand in NYC these days. I just read about the musicians local on broadway being pissed off because the theater owners wanted to get rid of minimums. If you put on a play in NYC that doesnt even have music in it you have to hire these musician to sit around and do nothing! This is utterly ridiculous and at this point in history unions are driving the price up on everything. No wonder I see companies moving out of state to a place where they can stay in business.

My two cents.

How about the legislation that CEDIA has been fighting that would require one of theses union "supervisors" to be on site for all AV and Low Voltage jobs... even if he/she has no experience in that area. Read up on CEDIA's web site about all the BS they're trying to axe... problem is, they're up against a mighty large and powerful group.

In the old days, as Chicaugur eloquently explains, Unions had a purpose and saved people from literal slavery. Now they serve the purpose of taking care of their own and trying to screw anyone who is not part of the fold.

Unions are like everything else. They have their good and bad. For every nightmare encounter with a union, we've also had an encounter without a hitch. Many guys in the union are not fanatics and realize the world isn't all union.

My advice is that if a union guy asks you if you are union, just say "no, unfortunately there is no union that exists for my field but luckily I work for a company that pays well and takes really good care of us". That may not stop the fanatics from cutting your wires, but it will go a long way towards establishing peace with some of the guys on the job if they realize there is no union for what you do and that your company isn't one of their "enemies".

Unfortunately there is a union for what I do... its the IBEW or whatever electrical workers union exists. In Washington, once a person is licensed as an 01 (electrician)journeyman or administrator, he/she is the master of all other subclasses; one of which is 06 (low voltage). Spending three years pulling romex and passing your test (please don't get me wrong in assuming that I think the test is not hard, I know it is) automatically qualifies you as an electrician, AV person, security guy, satellite dude or whatever you want to profess yourself to be as long as it relates to running wires.

That is why these guys get pissed when they see someone pulling speaker cabling, coax, data, etc. Even though the State has numerous subclasses, the problem lies in making the electrician the master of all. I think if you tell someone that he/she can now do it all, they will relay that to a customer. We have ALL seen jobs that have been botched by someone who got in over their head and just faked it.

Washington recently went into a licensing frenzy that required all of us who had been doing low voltage wiring as General Contractors or with a business license (or even with no license at all), to become certified, bonded, insurance carrying low voltage contractors. Their original intent was to put us all out of business by giving us NO credit for anything we had ever done and requiring us to work for 4000 hours before being allowed to take a test to certify our competancy. This, of course, was driven by the Unions wishing that all of this work would go to their own... even though most of their workers and supervisors had no real clue what it was about. Thankfully, the Dept. of Labor and Industries listened to our combined voices and allowed us a window of time to take the tests to become low voltage administrators and journeymen. Beware of this kind of thing coming to your own states and be prepared to make your voice heard when it does or you won't like the end result. Massachusetts was the one who tried to make AV companies hire a Union electrician to sit around and supervise all jobs. This was shot down with the help of CEDIA but revisions are on the draft table as we type.

Think of the companies that this extra overhead would push right over the edge. If these guys get their way, think of the backward steps our industry would take as large Union electrical houses take over the work and learn it by trial and error. Eventually, I see peaceful coexistence and a lot more cross-training as more electricians move toward the path of becoming systems integrators. For now though, it is something we should all keep a watch on.

Sorry I was all tied up posting my Union comments on a thread I had no business doing so on. I should have started my own but thanks to rhm9 I don't have to do that.

I hear what you're saying rhm9 and I can tell you that here in Chicago the Union is considering their own version of what happened to you in Washington. Only it is a more reasonable approach than what happened to you.
Chicago wants a State license for all practicing electricians. Personally I don't mind this too much because it aims to eliminate lots and lots of "jacks-of-all-trades" guys going in and doing everything they can get their hands on. The only problem with this is that they do so without ever drawing a permit to begin with! These people will always be a thorn in the sides of all professional contractors- they often work for cash,and have undesireable work habits but unfortunately I don't see them going anywhere.

Mandatory Electrical class licensing, in my opionion is a joke in a world where your work is scrutinized by owners, architects and most important, inspectors. The people that do their best in this world to make it as a contractor do so hopefully because they have become competent in their field of work. If they aren't, they won't be around for long.

The good thing about a licensing test is that doesn't discriminate. It is open to any and all, Union or Non. and if you're qualified, you will get your license.

Licensing here in Chicago attempts to ensure that each shop has at least one competent and qualified person. Here they call it the Supervising Electrician and no electrical contractor can operate legally in the City of Chicago without Him/Her.
If a shop does work without meeting code specs. or fails to draw a permit and is caught, there is risk of a fine and the more severe risk of losing the license altogether. So it does serve a worthwhile purpose by creating accountablity which should be what licensing is all about. Unfortunately, I can see the Union spinning ways to get there feet wedged further into doorways they so obviously already busted the latch and bent the hinge.

The dark side huh? It's not exactly black an white or light and dark......more shades of gray than anything Let us take the Baseball players "Union" as an extreme example. As I see it all Unions have two major things in common;

1)They consider themselves the best in their field
and have convinced many others that they are.
2)Have enough numbers to make a difference as a group i.e. strength in numbers.

Being the best creates a demand for their skill. When you go to the ballpark you know you are paying a lot but you are getting the best show that baseball can provide.(Nevermind that it doesn't apply to me coming from Chicago and being a Cub fan.)

The owners of these teams have steadily bowed to the players requests for ever larger salaries over the years. The players believe they are worth millions of dollars why? Because the environment they created allows it to happen. When the players Union announces a strike it is always because the players want more or the Owners argue that they need something to make their businesses more profitable or just to break even.

What is the result? It makes a 75 cent hot dog cost $4.75, a beer cost $7.00, and a nosebleed seat $27.00!
Yet the ballparks are filled. Ironically, America's pastime is watched live less and less by true fans and more and more by businessmen and people with money to burn. Note the cost of season tickets and corporate skyboxes.

Collective Bargaining is method by which owners negotiate wages with Union members. Each side must agree to the terms. When they don't you get picket lines. Eventually one side or the other has to break down. Now if you have a couple million in the bank you can probably afford to wait a while right? Owners often break down first because the demand is there. They raise the cost of everything so that an evening at the ballpark with the family takes half a weeks pay for the average man.

As long as this cycle remains possible it will continue.

Where do you see strong Unions now? Chicago, Philadelphia, New York. Lots of work to do and many many members. Each convinced they're the best. Each will walk away with the group if they feel mistreated. Their owners, in an effort to keep their companies, find ways to pass on the cost.

Where are Unions weak? Rural areas where there are fewer people creating less demand where jobs are needed badly leaving wages depressed and Unions essentially powerless.

Bottom line you can get what you are worth in your area. If you are the best and people are willing to pay for your services then you'll get it. This is all that Unions are doing, they have simply found a way to make themselves needed more than wanted. Owners don't want to pay the big bucks, they have to....and then again they don't! See? The conditions allow it.

Remember being Non-Union isn't against the law. You are free to operate your business just as any other under the laws that our Government has mandated.
But without the Union, in order to get the big bucks and the benefits you have to personally make your owner know that there isn't another guy like you waiting outside the door ready to work for less. You really do have to be the best.

The Union will fight for whatever wages and benefits they are able to, sometimes to a fault. But you should find a way to work yourself up to their wage level rather than convincing yourself that Union members are overpaid.

The Illinois thing sounds exactly like Washington. I just don't know if an electrician is given master status over all subclasses or even if the subclasses exist.

I'm not bitching about anything else Washignton has done. Allowing us to become certified basically gave a path to all of the "jacks of all trades" to get licensed or get out and it was pretty well advertised. I agree that unlicensed "contractors" do screw us all... we call them "trunkslammers" and most have never even seen the inside of an L%I office. It's funny how once you do get your license you sort of feel like the member of a club and even if you used to be on the outside looking in, your sympathies aren't really there once you cross over.

The Union houses put another division in the line though. I feel I'm competent and run a successful business but I'm looked down upon by those in that club much like I would look down on a trunkslammer; the difference being that we are both licensed professionals in the first scenario.

I use your advice... I just stay away from Union sites or schedule my work post electrical. On the incident I described with the cut wires, I knew something was fishy and the fix was a meter and about an extra hour and a half of labor so it really wasn't a huge deal.

My biggest fears are the Massachusetts style legislations that the Unions are sponsoring. Having to pay a Union scale worker who didn't actually work would be enough of an erosion of my profits to probably kill my business. Our area is competitive enough without this extra expense.

Just curious, how well do you Union guys think your interests are being represented by the Union leaders? It seems to me that what started as a push for better working conditions has denegrated into a power play by the bosses who seem more than willing to sell out for their own personal gain. I notice all their meetings are held in places such as Bal Harbor and other similarly posh resorts. Hardly the venue of the working man.

i don't know about where y'all are, but here in my area, the unions are the last chance employer of the unemployable...

Here, hiring union work does not mean you're hiring the best, it means you're hiring someone who couldn't find work elsewhere...

I deal a lot with stagehands, too... My area's union guys are the WORST... They do not understand the meaning of the word 'efficient'... If you work to fast, they beat the crap out of you, since working fast = less money they make... They have people who are stupid enough to be dangerous, etc.

I won't even go into how many union guys it takes to stick some duct tape to anything..... heh





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one to hold one end.... one to walk backwards with the roll..... one to walk on the piece being put down, and one to follow with a broom.

We call it "protection for the lazy". I can't see how boring life must be when you just show up, fart around with your tools, work like a robot at the same pace as everyone else with no real care that the job you're working on gets completed and no pride when it does.

You have roadwork all being done by Unions. One guy is in a hole, three guys are watching him while smoking, two are jawjacking by the truck, two are holding signs and the "supervisor" is talking to somebody on a cell phone. Of course, this has to be done in rush hour instead of at night because god forbid we should have to work anything but 8-5... that would be enslavement.

I guess I could go on and on but instead of slamming everyone answer this... what kind of licensing legislations are your own states adopting or working toward adopting?

Now, after all this... I'm going to jump over and see things from a Union side.(Wishy Washy Bastard!)

Being an integrator I take offense to the two following incidents.

#1. We put in a bid on a summer cabin on Hood Canal. Spent hours with the client educating them and learning that their main thing was that they needed simplicity. They also pulled a bid from one of my competitors that came in a tad higher. They decided to go with some unlicensed bozo friend of theirs whose HOBBY is stereo and figures that prewiring can't be that hard (HE'S NEVER FREAKIN DONE IT AND THIS IS A LOG CABIN!!!!).
Of course I'm pissed because no amount of talk can get it through these peoples heads that this job is NOT going to come out right. Will I go cut wires and assure this... of course not; then I'd be like the a--hole Unoin Guys who did it to me. I'm not even going to narc to L&I that this is being done sans permit. I'm just going to walk away and let the chips fall.

#2. The Training Department just sent me an advertisement that they are producing a DIY Structured Wiring Video... "would I like to buy one for $29.95? it will be great to train new installers!". How nice to empower homeowners to take this on themselves instead of paying a professional and then rub it in my face after I've paid for your other materials to train my installers to be professionals. A big FY to the Training Dept.

Both of these are an erosion of the profession that I am in... and they piss me off. I guess if you're a Union guy and someone who is not part of your club comes in and does work that you feel should be yours... it's going to piss you off too.

Just trying to see both sides of the debate we started here.

Rhm9,
Take it easy, hoss. People are not always going to make the right choice on anything. If you're in it for the long haul, you can sit back and laugh at some of these jobs you don't get. One of the best referrals I ever got was from a homebuyer that went with "the other guy". Regarding the Training Dept., you should be happy they are selling a DIY video. The average homeowner will see this, realize how much time and tools it takes, and call you anyway. Either that or they will totally botch it and call you to fix. (You charge more to fix, right?)

Thon,

I do charge more for fixing but as a guy who does mostly retrofit work... I get tired of it. Jobs done by the homeowner or guys like the one I described have an absolute 100% "something is f----d up". Not once have I seen it done right.

If I sound a bit pissy in the other post remember that I was trying to keep an interesting debate alive by taking on the personna of the Union Guy. I am laughing about the cabin job because we've already been called twice by the homeowner looking for advice and the architects are ready to strangle the rookie because he picked out big ugly speakers at Magnolia Hi-Fi and plans to mount them in very ugly places (including on the log posts which will have visible wiring in wiremold coming down them and going along the exposed rafters). We just told them to fire him before the damage gets too great...but advice isn't free. They now have to pay us for a system design or call someone else.

I'm still PO'd about the video and won't get over that one. These guys have made all of their income selling to professionals and now wish to "HOMEDEPOTIZE" our fine industry ( which will undoubtedly add to more snafu'd systems... those in which the "please help me" call will never come prior to sheetrock).

I just had hardwood floors laid in my house. I almost felt empowered to read a book, rent the tools and do my own job even though I had always hired it out before... you know, to save money. Then I gave it a long thought. Instead I spent the whole weekend playing with my kids while the pros came in and did a fantastic job. I didnt have to destroy my knees, rent tools that were most likely inferior to the ones these guys own, suck up a headfull of sawdust... and I ended up with a good looking floor instead of one that might be obviously a "Homeowner job" to those in the know.

Anyway,

Even though I sound grizzled I'm having a lot of fun and really enjoy the info I get out of here and the different points of view.

rhm9,
I regards the log cabin story, there was a similar incident that happened to me. I had two long meetings with a client building a lake home in which I gathered electronic systems information and also pitched the "simple control is better". Lighting & HVAC control with energy management with distributed music and single remotes for their media areas. 80 to 100k setup in a 5500sq ft lake home for two mid 60 adults.
I had a good referal from the builder as well. Everything looked good for a design deposit and then He decided to take a guy from the shop that wires PLC panels to wire. I did not turn over any designs.
I am waiting for a call... to say with a smile..."Sorry, we cannot help you with your plans without the correct wiring." The builder should know better from the previous projects + he loses the project commision. You bet I am smiling. The people were not the right type to enjoy or appreciate the work we all do. I look forward to meeting and working for the people who are ready. The next month I met a couple who are excited about the systems available and want more, incuding Security, Extensive lighting, HVAC zoned control, Video cameras, Plasma screens, Dedicated Home Theater,Phone System and large Media system on the main level. Fun people to work with is the Best part of the job.