Hello

Here is my question: how do high end system manage to get a feedback from devices that only offer IR input (no RS 232 or anything else).
Do they use a proprietary hardware, or is it software based somehow?

I have seen demoes where the user can set the volume on a TV set, and does get a feedback on his iPhone, as it gives the volume level as a percentage of max.

The reason why I'm asking:
I currently use a Pronto TSU 7000, but would like to upgrade to have full 2 way capabilities. I like the iPhone as a device, and would like to base my next system on this.
Many high end supplyers (Crestron for instance), do provide iPhone interface.
There is a company called Commandfusion that has developped a software called iViewer to create an interface to operate Crestron and AMX with the iPhone.
I will not go for the Crestron solution (too expensive for me) but rather with Global Cache iTach.

Thanks

Olivier

Its not possible to get feedback from IR. You can fake the feedback but its not consistent, doesnt represent the real volume and generally a bad idea.

Are you sure the TV was not being controlled with rs-232?

no I am not sure at all!
so the short answer to my question would be is when you get a Crestron system, it cannot properly control everything, but you should choose the devices based on their RS232 capabilities?
If so it's helping me set my expectations at the right level!
I thought there was a way to do this with any device (I read something about Logitech having some way of receiving IR feedback in Harmony 1100, but not sure it actually works)...

thanks

Olivier

What you are referring to is the onboard variable-based tracking of devices offered by Logitech remotes. No feedback is being provided to the remote in this case. The remote is internally keeping track of a given components power or input status for instance based on the last power or input IR code sent by the remote. For components which do not offer discrete power or input IR codes this variable tracking allows for more intelligent macros to be sent from the remote when changing from one activity to another. Of course the remote is acting under the presumption that any given IR code sent from the remote is successfully being received by the given component. The remote is also relying on the fact that no one is changing the state of a given device physically or with another remote.

I am not sure what you are saying/asking here. Crestron (and any control system) can control an IR device properly. Some IR devices have discrete ON and OFF commands and Input 1 Input 2 etc commands. This is usualy good enough to have complete control over something. Devices that dont have discrete commands can have their power state reliably controlled with power sensors. The control system checks to see if the device is drawing power and decides to send the POWER toggle command if it needs to.

RS-232 can provide 2way communications. So you get discrete control over ON and OFF and INPUTS but you get information back from the device. The control system can ask "are you on" and the TV reports back "yes i am". Not exactly like that but you get the idea. And just like that imagined conversations.. the volume level can be sent back to the control system.

thanks for your thourough explanation! this is the difference between marketing and reality! And reality in this case does not sound so interesting...

so if a device does not have RS232, is there another way to send orders in a fully reliable way, and get feedback?
I guess not...

I have a internet box that does not have RS232, and is not always easy to drive with IR (not reliable for a few commands)

thanks

olivier

just refering to the fact that with IR control it is not 100% reliable (sometimes IR instructions are not received or executed well, at least with my Pronto), and therefore I assumed that a really professional system could not accept this, but maybe I'm wrong.

IR can be made to be 99% reliable with the right control system and a good integrator. The way this is done is by using a control system that does not require line of site from the remote to the device (TV/Blu-ray). What i mean is that your remote or touchpanel uses RF or wi-fi to communicate with a control processor or base station. The IR commands are sent from/thru the base station via IR emitters that are attached to the TV or Blu-ray player or whatever.

What this does is it gives you a very reliable wireless connection via RF or WI-FI between your remote or touch screen and a very reliable wired connection between the processor or base station and the TV or Blu-ray player or whatever. Now it doesnt matter what room you are in or where you point the remote. Your commands will be sent to your devices.

You mentioned your pronto. Are you using IR directly out of the pronto? Or are you using an extender?

If you are using an extender and still having issues with missed IR commands then my advice would be to look at your macros and make sure that you have your delays between commands adjusted. As an example. TV ON and TV INPUT2 would need a long enough delay between them so that the TV can actually turn on and accept the INPUT command.

A macro would look like this...

TV ON
Delay 5 seconds
TV INPUT 2

To give you an idea of how different delay times can be for different TV's i have a 14 second delay at one clients house for her 19" samsung LCD's. Most TV's will take an input command after 5 seconds. So this sort of thing needs to be tweaked on site.

Another thing to look at is to make sure that the IR ports are routed. A. to the TV B. to the Blu-ray player etc. And (if possible/available) shut off the IR blaster.

Yes, via TCP/IP. The iPhone example you sighted is an example of this. The latest Pronto remotes (TSU9400/TSU9600/TSU9800) offer 2-way control over IP as well.

I just read your first post again. Are you using IR straight from the TSU7000? If so there are many available solutions that will make your system 99% reliable.

The iPhone and global cache may work but they will not give you smooth operation like you are used to with the pronto. You would do better to get a new pronto and extender. Or take a look at URC or RTI

[Link: pronto.philips.com]

[Link: universalremote.com]

[Link: rticorp.com]

Prontos can be bought for less than MSRP online and the programming software is freely available.

URC remotes, when purchased from a dealer can come with software if the dealer chooses to give it to you. If the dealer refuses ask the next one and then the next one until you get the software.

RTI is a dealer only product that does not come with software.

The RFX6000/RFX6500 extenders use standard RF per your TSU7000. Not sure if you are using extenders or not, but RF interference, IR emitter placement, the IR codes themselves and duration and timing at which IR codes are sent all can have an impact on how reliable your IR based system may be. That being said, with the proper testing and adjustments if needed an IR based system can prove to be very reliable.

Now as you already own a TSU7000 I would definately recommend that you check out what the Pronto Professional line has to offer. The Pronto Professional line of remotes and extenders (TSU9400/TSU9600/TSU9800/RFX9400/RFX9600) use Wi-Fi versus standard RF to communicate with each other. A given remote must maintain a connection with the extender it's attempting to send commands to otherwise the remote will stop in its tracks.

Quoted from here ...
"To overcome Wi-Fi drop outs Philips have written their own protocol which transmits the commands in a 'packet' formation over the standard Wi-Fi networks. This means a dropout will not allow a macro to only part execute causing systems to get out of sync."

This at the very least ensures that the extenders are successfully receiving a given command providing for a far more robust IR solution than what is offered per the Pronto NG line. I went from the TSU7500 to a TSU9600, so I can attest to this first hand. The Pronto Professional line also supports 2-way communication via TCP/IP or RS-232, ProntoScript and much more. While this is an old post, check out my reply here where I outline many of the benefits when going from the Pronto NG line to the Pronto Professional line.

I am using both depending on the device. I do tend to have more issues when going through the RF extender (not surprisingly I guess, as it simply makes things more complex).


Thanks I am aware of this, and I have done all the tweaking I could. However the required delay is not always the same for the same device and the same commands. So I guess the issue is not just about delay, but rather errors in transmission, although I am not sure.
Several times when I had the issues I tried adding a 5 second delay (when 0.5 is normally enough) and it does not change the issue.


Not sure what you mean regarding routing.
I have blacked out the IR blaster as it was in a closet, and obviously was creating some issues.

Could you elaborate on this?
How do you get feedback from an IR controlled device through TCP/IP.

I have seen feedback from computer hosted devices, but not from a standalone (like a tv for instance) device.

thanks

I have the TSU7000 + RF extender


Could you explain why it will not be smooth?
I asked people using Global Cache if the system was stable, and they told me it was, but did not have an iphone.

Thanks

thanks, very interesting feedback. Good to know the TSU9600 + extender works better because it is alors significantly more expensive!

Cost is actually the main reason for me not to consider the TSU9600 + extender at this stage.
I already have an iPod Touch, so getting a software like iViewer Command Fusion and a Global Caché iTach would cost around 300 USD, as opposed to around 1400USD for the Pronto...
The other reason is I do prefer capacitive touch screens, which I do not believe the Pronto is equipped with.

Thanks