Another humorous case in point. So avdude buys his Pronto’s from another supplier. Why? Because they are cheaper. And he buys 90% of his other products from other suppliers at 30% less on average. So avdude is going with the lowest price just like all the builders/clients we rant about. Imagine that :-). I don’t suppose that’s just good business sense for avdude, is it?

Yet at the same time, it would appear that AVAD is doing quite well. An indication perhaps that they have found a means to compete even though are charging more? That perhaps marketing and a good cohesive product mix with one stop shopping are also important? I wonder if the guys as AVAD built a multimillion dollar national operation by endlessly ranting that some other distributor is stealing their business with lower prices.

My only comment is this....

How on earth can you line item the wire that goes into a prewire??? Do you go out and run string around to get the exact amount of wire your going to need?

I've never run into a builder (Or homeowner for that matter) that cared how much the "Wire" was... They want to know how much per plate, or how much per pull. Labor and materials.

We've got people that charge $25 a pull in my neck of the woods.... I dont see how they do it.... I'm anywhere from $50-100 depending on the cable and plate used.....

Yes... I use Monster Cable CI wire...... Price that out.... but when someone sells "Monster Cable" instead of "Belden, Comscope, Genesis, Coleman, or Proflex, I have a bit more credibility off the bat just becasue they "Know" Monster Cable is the best.

You coward Impaqt :-). I know you agree with every word I said but instead of saying so you're going to sit back and let me take the beating :-).

Q,

There is whining and there is awareness...

Read my fish story in the "trash mouthing" thread. Your posts indicate that you are one of the guys at the south end of the lake with your blinders on because at this time you are fat and happy... good for you... you've obviously done your work to get to that point. I don't know where you live but I do know some areas of the country are easier to make a killing in. We don't live there... we live where new people from the electrical, security, used car etc. industries are being "enlightened" daily... Where every big firm spawns five or six new installers a year who go off to AVAD with a couple of their previous employers clients then realize they should have stayed when things dry up so they give shit away too when trying to find new clients... Where the builders of big custom homes have figured that they too can just walk into AVAD and get a full list of pricing (especially on wire) which they'll just hand to their trou dropping sparky.

I do agree that you have to focus your energy on your own business plan... guess thats why I've been doing that for so long. Something that comes across as a whine is usually just a vent (a semi-anonymous one at that... something one who provides no e-mail adrress would certainly know about).

Awareness is what causes change. Of course there is competition in all business. I love legitimate competition. I don't however like people I support (AVAD) using the dollars I've helped them to grow with to now enter into competition with me (D2B). I don't like associations that claim to be helping me show up at electrical conventions trying to give the theoretical license to a bunch of sparkys by telling them "all they need to know about Home Theater in an hour and a half". I don't like manufacturers who let their products get whored out by people with the audacity to tell me in a test call with questions that I should go stroke some guy at a retail store to learn about products then come to him with pricing because technically he doesn't know s--t. I don't like people proporting to be legitimate competition that don't even carry the proper licenses to compete.

I find that letting it out here is cathartic. the twenty minutes I spend on this forum every other day is augmented by every other hour being spent in positive business growing activity.

Design4Us comments are not based on spec home wiring...they are based on losing the wiring portion of huge custom homes being built by clients we already know... whose builders won't let anyone but Mr Sparkomatic wire it (for free at that). Going in after these guys and basically rewiring the house after finish costs our client unnecessary money and always leads to us making concessions. Believe me... we spend a LOT of time trying to "sell ourselves" but as you also note... builders can be a waste of time.

If you read the latest Residential Systems magazine... you will note that there is a lot of "awareness" there... written by some long time gurus. Awareness, in whatever form it comes, is what is necessary for change.

Enjoy your fishing for now!

Bravo RHM,
QQQ, He has some good points... Whining and venting are diffrent things..and as an Industry we should be tired of it..It is true that we are in some ways the same as everyone else. WE should remain positive and do good business..But that also means, WE ALL SHOULD.. Period..We are in our infancy as a trade compared to others..And if we would set a standard now, and include licensing of some sort,and standards of business,Then we would all benifit from it..Beleive me QQQ, I can rant with the best of them..and I can play hard ball, and "TRULY COMPETE" and keep my nose to the grindstone and hang with a Trunk slammer if need be..But I will sell my service over their price any day..So I will always be more..and know I will be, and always tell the customer why..We do not and no one should be competing with sparkys..If the builder or customer wants them than we should not..However in the A/V realm we should hang tough..


THXRick

lol... I thought that would be understood without saying it in so many words..... There are obviously 2 schools of though in this forum..... Those of us who dont worry about what the guy next door is doing, and those that do....

Theres always going to be a bit of crossover between the groups, but overall, they guy who concentrate on doing the best they posibly can without worrying about what the other guys are doing tend to float to the top.....

This IS a business folks. Some people think they can make money by undercutting the next guy..... Thats OK if your working out of your Trunk or Cargo van I guess..... Low overhead.... And you can easily change your cell number to get away from the folks who are not so happy with what you did to their home....

I've been in this business a long time, and have the pleasure of working for some of the best dealers in chiago..... What I can say is this..... of the 5 companies I've worked for, one is out of business.... and that one was primarily a 2-ch and Car audio stereo shop.... 3 of the 4 didnt (And dont) worry abou the next guys.... They've all grown a LOT over the past 10 years(Even without me there.... Go figure...) and are quite successful. The 4th is a Car staero shop first and foremost and does tend to discount....their business has stayed pretty consistant.... Not growing by leaps and bounds like the other places..

Thats all fne and dandy.......

During my stay, I've seens at LEAST 20 business startup and FAIL... ANd I see many more struggling to stay afloat. I dont think its coincident that most of those business' were heavy discounters. If your a discounter, it only takes on big job to put you under. The 100k+ job looks real apealing on paper... and hey... Making 10-15k on that seems OK to a lot of folks.... But a design flaw can wipe that profit out in a hurry...

Now I'm jsut rambling....... Gotta stop now before I got too un-PC

Some random thoughts on the AVAD thing.

1. If it was not AVAD it would be some other company doing it. Don't blame AVAD specifically, blame the state of the industry.

2. AVAD is doing what any company should be doing; trying to prosper, grow, profit. They should not and definitely are not looking out for us. We are in charge of looking out for us.

3. AVAD is taking advantage of a sea change in the audio/video industry, where vendors are looking to cash in on a boom in business. AVAD is (as far as I know) a group of reps that have moved into distribution and used their rep background to secure both sides of the business with the vendors that will play ball with them, i.e. almost everybody. Smart move for them, I think.

4. The moves that AVAD has made are not to my advantage in many cases. I have based my business on a high margin-high service model. My customers expect high service, and I have to earn the revenue to support that. My customers expect me to be "competitive", and don't especially value my pleas that I need the money when I'm up against a trunk slammer. Customers are looking out for themselves and not me, see Random Thought #2 above. I need to support the brands that I can earn higher margins on, and that by infrence will exclude those brands that are available from any distributor, AVAD or other.

5. There are a number of vendors who are interested in growing with a small number of direct dealers and outside of distribution. These vendors are not Empire Builders like the AVAD vendors, they are Smart Cookies (in my view)because they are not going to see their sales go straight up and then straight back down when no one can make a dime on them.

6. AVAD is useful to me for what they do best, distributing parts and components that I don't base my system presentations on, but need to complete the job. They are actually a pretty skilled distributor, and service me well.

I will build my business with the brands that value my solid support. In the words of a friend in the industry; "I want to dance with thems that brought me to the ball....."

No rhm9, I’m actually one of the guys that used to whine all the time. I’d spend hours with a client and give them a proposal only to have them buy from someone else. I always blamed it on everyone but myself. Most of all on the client that I blamed for making a bad decision. Or on the competitor that won the sale. Or the manufacturer that was "whoring” out their products. *That’s when I was wearing blinders.*

Then I started to learn. I listened with fascination to the speakers (people) at CEDIA that had achieved what I aspired to. People like Russ Herschelmann. And I realized that all of these people had one thing in common. They sold clients on themselves and the end experience, NOT on products or pricing. And they didn’t just *hope* the client would figure it out, they made sure they did.

That’s the approach I took and it has worked. The MOMENT I meet with a client they know I’m NOT going to be the lowest priced. By the end of the meeting I have explained to them tactfully but confidently that I will be far from the lowest priced - and show (!!!***PROVE***!!!) to them what the end result will be.

Now in fairness, I should explain my business model. I pursue higher end work. I do NOT pursue budget/entry level work. Because that’s just part of the rat race I don’t desire to be involved in. But IF I did pursue that market, rest assured I wouldn’t spend my time complaining about it. I’d know that for that market price is a STRONG determining factor and I’d find a way to compete – OR I’d get out of that market. A BIG part of my philosophy is that every business needs to decide who it wants as customers/what projects it wants just as much as the customer decides on you. In other words who is your target market. I have a seen some companies develop a spreadsheet (for internal use, NOT the client) that asks several questions to determine if it’s a project that should be pursued.

I should also explain that I live in a big city that supports the types of projects I’m interested in working on. BUT I also moved here specifically because of that. In the small city I used to live in the high-end projects weren’t there. So I either had to move or focus on the budget stuff where lowest price often ruled. I chose to move.

I don’t claim to be more successful than anyone else here; in fact I’m sure that I’m not. All I claim is that I figured out how to get out of the rat race. I love what I do and like virtually all of my clients and enjoy working with them. I used to be dejected all the time because of losing projects. And the client relationship was often an adversarial one due to the reasons so many people here rant about. It just never happens any more. It’s been years since I’ve had my time wasted by a price shopping tire kicker.

I love my work! But I only reached that point by focusing on myself as my biggest enemy stopping me from being successful and not the client or the builder or the manufacturer etc.

And tomorrow and the year after. You won’t find me complaining (at least not about this :-)).

That’s my Anthony Robbins motivational speech for the day. Have fun ranting :-

Ok Tripple Q, I will take the gloves of know. I have been designing systems for over 16 years and work mostly on refferal. I to have sat thru many classes and followed all the techniques. When I drive up in the driveway and step out of the car they know I will be more expensive, and then I will remind the and explain why I will be. I have sold for the best companies and have always been in the top couple percent. That is becase I focus on one thing and that is the customers best interest! The customers best interest is not the lowest bid it is the job that is exactly what they wanted at the end. I will not buy a cable or component that pays the most if it will not provide the end result for my clients. I do not focus on buidlers as my only source of business it is to keep the installation crews busy in between large projects and allows us to maintain a excellent group of installers and keep them happy. These are the things that I care about. So wake up and dont think you know who I am. Your comments did give me quit a laugh thou, so for that I thank you. It if fun to see people so arrigant and full of themselves. TAKE A SLICE OF HUMBLE PIE AND PEOPLE WILL LIKE YOU MUCH MORE.

You reacted quite emotionally. Why doesn’t that surprise me? How about answering some questions instead.

1. Do you honestly think AVAD is "buying the wire market" (your words NOT mine). YES or NO.

You stated that because of new pricing from AVAD you were able to cut your pricing on wire:

2. If you managed to cut your wire pricing in half, where were you buying your wire previously? Home Depot? Radio Shack?

3. Do you really think that AVAD managed to cut wire pricing in half? YES or NO. Do you think they also have a corner on the gold and silver market?

4. If the answer to #3 is no (and it IS), then that would suggest AVAD has not really effected much of a change in the wire market at all. Correct?

5. If the answer to the previous question is “correct”, (and it IS), might that mean that you’ve actually been previously paying inflated prices for your wire? YES OR NO?

6. If the answer to # 5 is yes (and it has to be if the facts you have already given are accurate), then based on the facts as you have presented them, that would suggest you were previously losing money/business because you were overcharging for your cable. Correct? YES or NO.

7. You state that you were finally going to be able to make some margin on cable. Then you state that you cut your price in half because you found a lower price. Care to explain how cutting your price in half was going to result in “finally making some margin”?