The logitechs are just cheaply made. However in your situation, they may be the right choice. The issue with the controller is that who ever programs it is responsible for the whole system. Being that you want to be in the mix with your system, you want to pick out the parts and supply them, you just want someone to put them in, I would suggest that you find someone who is willing to work as a consultant. Pay them for every second of their time that you use, pay for the installation, and learn how to use it yourself. Anyone on this board can install any system if we don't need to turn it on.

If it were me, I'd charge you a marked up rate, say $125 an hour for every second of my time, run your wires, hang your tv, install the components, give you a basic diagram, and let you put in your own harmony. Might cost you $1500 - $2500, you get it working, you learn the ins and outs, assign your own inputs, calibrate it yourself, and if you can't get it working, then its your buck for me to come back, but only if you buy my URC or RTI control and pay me $125 an hour to learn the equipment.

I say that I don't understand the thinking processes of the engineers who design them. Even though I now have an okay relationship with their national trainer, I still don't get it. The best metaphor I can think of is that Denon is like a High Maintenance woman whom you're in love with: it's gonna be a pain in the ass, the demands will be unreasonable, you're in love so you're gonna do what she asks, and, in the end, you'll think the BJ was worth it all. I'm just not in love with any product because at some level all products are whores.


Hope the poor guy doesn't read that last paragraph.


It is incredible for a DIYer who has no problem dicking around with it endlessly. For an installer, a product that requires that is death: we can't just make it work, get paid, and go away. We need to use products that DO NOT require constant tweaking.


Yeah, but look what just happened above: you seem to be confused, that is, you don't know enough to make clear judgments or comments about the guy who loves, the guy who hates Denon; nor about the people who love or hate Logitech.

I believe that if you can see people who hate product and others who don't, and you don't clearly understand the situation, you don't actually know enough to "find the components of a home theater that are suited to [you]"


I will do that for you.


Yeah, my point again. Is a guy who asks that last question qualified to decide which remote to use?


The "special rate" means that, since I cannot make any profit on the product yet must pay the same overhead to stay in business, you will have the pleasure of buying whatever you want wherever you want, and I will stay in business by making sure that I make enough to be there when and if you want me to make a change to the system.

Don't forget that profit is not evil: it's what pays for the doors to stay open and for the trucks to roll.


I warranty that I connected each end of each wire to what looks to me like the right thing. On your side, I've got years and years of experience doing this stuff, so I won't do anything dumb. Unless the manufacturer you choose thinks in very strange ways (see my Denon comments above).


I'll only read what I need to read if any questions come up. I won't just read the entire thing.


They will work 100%, or not (that's the digital world, you know); and "work" must include running in third or fourth gear if I don't happen to know that there are five gears...just an analogy, but the gears are not marked on the knob in a surround receiver.


Exactly. Of course, I can spend a few more days with your gear, and get it perfect. But how does that sit with you, when one of your goals MUST be to save money?


Because the terms of buying that TV might be (search this site) that it will be brought to your front door and you are responsible for getting it off the truck and everything else involved. And if it's broken, you are responsible for shipping costs. And it may be gray market, having no warranty. And since I didn't make fifty bucks on it, I can't afford to put a problem with that TV ahead of a problem for a customer who bought his TV from me. Or to come look at it even once to give an opinion for free.

From another post:

Gee, I paid $100 for this brake disc, and that doesn't include installation? Egads, man!

Read Post 22 again. It has happened.


You DO realize that if the steak doesn't come out the way you want it, you will complain to the chef, right?


As I said, I'll do it for you, and I'll charge what's needed to stay in business, but there will be strict adherence to the advice on my one bumper sticker:

Wow!

Ernie, you win the award for longest post!!!!


Any receiver that will give me oral sex wins my sale... Sorry Integra, the Denon swallows!


You hit the nail on the head... At some point down the road when I have to reformat the remote or bring some new piece of equipment in, I'm hoping its going to be easier and faster for me to re-program it myself... From what I gather the Universal ones are fantastic when an installer does the initial programming but does that mean I have to bring someone back everytime I want to tweak things or add a new component? ... (Also, I'm a Mac user, so part of me is bias towards things that work with the Mac. I havent heard anyone mention Macs and Universal Remotes)


Thats the whole point of research. No one is born knowing which home theater components are suited to them. Trial and error. Ask and answer. Research and listen to the advice and word of mouth of others. The the whole point of boards and discussions. Personally, I think thats a good thing.


I agree with you. Thats why I don't mind paying a fair price. I am using my cash to hire someone who knows more than me.


Hey, don't be dissin' my new sex slave!

daber - i think the botom line here is if your looking for someone who will be in, get paid, and get out of your house, you are looking in the wrong place. I think the remotecentral forums are used by people that actually care or give a shit about what they do. If someone is posting on here at 9pm when they should be boinking the old lady or drinking a cold one, that says that they care about what they do. i think your looking for someone who really dosent care wether they have cashed your check. I am sure they will be willing do the job for you and sell you the licenced software they are contractually bound not to.

You guys are being absolutely silly, you realize that right? He told you the components he wants. He knows how he wants to use them. He just wants them installed. Stop using stupid analogies about steaks. They aren't working. You guys are acting like a Denon 4310 purchased at retailer A will perform or hook up any different than the Denon 4310 purchased at retailer B who charges "MSRP" when every other retailer has come down in price due to this this we call competition. It's the same unit. It carries the same warranty. It performs the same, plugs in the same, has the same abilities. All he is saying is he wants to select the gear that will be in HIS system that he buys with HIS money. He should be able to do that, and a professional installer should be able to plan the system based on the gear he has, sell him the accessories to make everything work and install it. Why should he, as a casual movie watcher be forced for pay for the $600 Oppo, when a Panasonic for $300 will suit his needs just fine? He probably doesn't care about the extra processing power or 7.1 channel outs. 1 HDMI cable for hookup. What's the difference? Saying you can't install one over the other is plain silly.

Surely you have had clients that have moved from somewhere, have existing gear and want it hooked up right? Do you refuse this business because you didn't sell it as well? The fact is, if I can roll into a Best Buy and get the same TV that a CE Pro shop is selling for $1000 less, but I have to pay $500 more for someone who isn't a complete clown to install it, I still come out ahead. You get paid labor that you wouldn't if you refused the business. I absolutely agree with many of your points here, I do. No warranty over the internet, or support. You have no idea on the condition of the unit ahead of time. Should it cost more at an authorized retail establishment? Hell yes. Should you support it when it breaks? Nope. Can you charge to hook it up, and will it hook up just the same? Absolutely.

Thank you Havok- That's my feeling exactly! Bravo for putting is in words so well.

It might be the same unit, might have a valid warranty and it may perform the same... this all depends on who your buying it from and whether or not its a refurbished unit or being sold sideways with no warranty. My advice is to buy from Best Buy or thru Amazon and not one of their resellers so that you have a chance at getting it replaced when it shows up damaged or dead.

I personally could care less where the CE products come from. Labor rate is the same but i bill for any service calls and additional time dealing with DOA products.

When you purchase products thru me i eat the cost dealing with DOA and damaged goods. If you want to assume that responsibility i will happily agree to it.


He is able to select his gear and any professional installer can install it but most choose not to.

Professional installers plan the system based on the clients needs. Starting with a pile of gear is doing it backwards.

I agree with you about the $600 Blu-ray player. What a joke when you can get one for $300 that will work just fine. But you have to remember that a professional installer is running a Custom Installation business with a business model. If they choose to only sell Oppo then thats what they have and you can take it or leave it. They are not saying they cant install the less expensive player they are saying the wont install it.


I think your exaggerating. Give me a model number. I haven't seen a Best Buy TV that has $1000 wiggle room on it in over 5 years.


If their business model is set up to take on projects that are labor only they will be able to do this project. If not.. they wont be able to do it.


Yep... accept when its damaged or DOA out of the box. If the client assumes that responsibility and they are unlucky they have just lost any imagined savings.

I always do.

I'll be sure to tell the trainer.

That was my plan (I'm trying to make this short for a change).

At some point down the road when I have to reformat the remote or bring some new piece of equipment in, I'm hoping its going to be easier and faster for me to re-program it myself...
Then, from what I've heard, you want a Harmony. Later you will be able to tell us if it's true love, or if it's the best remote in the universe but we installers don't get it, or whatever.


If, by Universal, you mean able to be programmed for anything, then, yes. If you mean the brand Universal, they are good but I wouldn't say "fantastic." In fact, I'd want to give you a lesson about usability and the type of remote you use, multibutton or mostly touchscreen. And I would rate RTI higher than URC for RF and for one-button type programming. URC is better for price.

... (Also, I'm a Mac user, so part of me is biased towards things that work with the Mac. I havent heard anyone mention Macs and Universal Remotes)
Because nobody, as far as I know, has made any remotes with software for the Mac. It's good that you use the word "bias" because it is not a rational leaning.


There's only so much research that can be done. After that you have to yield to the advice of others or continue the research, going from paying for magazines with reviews to paying for components and remotes -- some of which you might hate. Paying an installer...no, a designer, to meet your system needs should be the issue. I got bit once when a client told me she wanted a TiVo, but never even hinted that she wanted a TiVo-like deivce. This was early in the life of TiVo and she hated me for supplying exactly what she asked for. Don't do that.


That would be impossible unless you want to use the home theater components that existed when you were born. An interesting sentence....

Anyone remotely interested in Harmony is undoubtedly DIY so do us all a favour, (be true to your calling) and Do It Yourself.......:)

Apparently NOT...ROFLOL

Either the OP is a complete lazy ass (doubtful) or he does not feel he is competent enough to install the gear and/or he does not have the skill to negotiate a deal with a local CI.

My best advice is to either find a local guy and let him design the entire project or spend a few more months learning how this stuff is done.

Sitting here whining to a bunch of CIs that you do not like the way our industry works gets you nowhere and makes you look pretty silly. I wish that Outback had a drive thru with $5 16 ounce ribeyes that were served in 2 mins medium rare and that they had my mother cut them up for me but I doubt that will ever make their bussiness model.

I think Hollywood feature films are way too expensive to go see so I think all the people who make them should take a 50% pay cut so I can go see them in the theaters for $2 again and I should be able to bring my own snacks in.
Do you see how silly all this is? Our industry is what it is and I doubt it will change just for you.

I got my start in the movie industry installing some of the first surround systems that were ever in theaters and installing platter systems so that theaters could be chopped in half so that films were more affordable for people to go see but today movie theaters are seeing hard times. Cutting prices would probably cause that entire industry to collapse thus adding you to the ranks of the unemployed.

Daper-

1) Any good CI worth his weight will only install product they sell. That doesnt mean I wouldnt install something if it wasnt bought from me (example a Denon4310 you bought from a CI that went under).... I would as long as the product was something I would recommend....however, I would charge more for more time to make up for the lost profit that I use to provide the support required in this industry. This is a real business we are running.... We have REAL overhead.... We take real business trips to conferences in Atlanta to stay up on product.

2) If you demanded to use a Harmony remote and costco mount I wouldnt take the job. Not that the product is bad (which in this case it is) but I simply dont have the time to read through every manual of new products to deliver a result I know how to deliver in a 1/3 the time with familiar product from companies that I know stand behind their product.

3) If I bid something out for you and you trust my recommendations enough to buy the product offline and then want to use me for installation because I know what I am talking about. Yet, you expect me to do the job for considerably less profit and you still expect the same result..... I would gladly tell you "no thanks and good luck".

This is a great time to post what we've been using when presented with client provided equipment. We use this policy for any items not purchased through us no matter what it is or what its value is. CI's, simply substitute all of the ______ with your company name and modify to fit your needs. I should note that this policy is obviously slanted toward us, the CI and frankly I could care less :-) It's a take it or leave it situation IMO with client provided equipment.

**************************************

Client Supplied Equipment Policy

In order to assure a high quality installation when using equipment not supplied by _______, the following procedures will be followed. These procedures are the result of extensive experience with equipment from various sources and we have found that following these procedures greatly reduces wasted time in the installation process, therefore keeping down cost to the Client.

General Procedures:

______ will install Client provided equipment (at its sole discretion) with the same care and expertise as any equipment being supplied by _______.


______ reserves the right to refuse to install and/or program Client provided equipment for any reason.

______ will strive to integrate Client provided equipment to the best of the equipment's ability. This includes searching for control codes, picture/sound settings, and working to achieve the best possible results from the equipment.

Any time spent researching Client provided equipment will be billed to the Client at a rate of $120 per hour with a minimum of one hour.

______ will only be held responsible for the proper operation of equipment specified and provided by ______.

Model number deviations within the same brand can reduce intended functionality or cause undesired performance. There are also situations where a manufacturer will produce a similar model to those carried by ______; these items often lack many of the features that we require to ensure a successful installation.

______ cannot guarantee the performance of any equipment not provided by ______, even if the equipment is the same model number as ______'s original design and proposal. Outside sources sometimes modify product in-house to save money. ______ can only guarantee the performance of equipment provided by ______.

Redesigning a system based on model number discrepancies will be charged to Client at a rate of $120 per hour with a minimum of one hour.

______ will document any work performed on Client provided equipment in the same manner as equipment provided by ______.

______ will NOT install equipment found to be defective, damaged, stolen, altered or obtained from unauthorized resellers. If the serial number is altered or missing in any way, ______ will not install or work on said product. Under certain circumstances, ______ is legally obligated to report suspected stolen equipment to proper authorities and to the original manufacturer or their representative.

Installation Procedures:

Any and all equipment purchased from an outside source must be on site prior to the scheduled time of installation in its original manufacturer provided, factory sealed, unopened packaging.

Client and Installer must be onsite during the unpackaging of equipment to verify that all parts are included and that the equipment is in new condition.

Client and installer must sign off on each piece of equipment as it is opened to verify all listed parts are included and item is not damaged.

Client will be held responsible for any missing items and will be billed for any time incurred in finding replacements for missing items that are required for installation.

If there is any visible damage, or if the product is clearly used, the product in question will require a full bench test* at the client's expense prior to installation.

Any item not factory sealed will require a full bench test* prior to installation to verify functionality at the Client’s expense.

Any item carrying a "B-stock", "R-Stock", "Refurbished", or other label marking it as a repaired unit will be subject to a full bench test* prior to installation at the Client 's expense.

Each item supplied from an outside source will be installed according to the included installation manual and industry best practices. If an installation manual is not included, Client will be billed for any time required to acquire one or time required to research the equipment's functionality.

Warranty Information

______ will provide a warranty for 180 days on any installation labor performed and will perform service on labor at no charge on equipment provided by ______.

After 180 days, ______ will provide a warranty for the duration of the manufacturer's warranty on any parts which ______ supplies and installs. During this time, ______ will troubleshoot, diagnose, remove, ship, and reinstall the defective unit at a cost to the Client of $120 per hour plus actual shipping and packaging charges.

______ will NOT warranty (parts or labor) any item not provided by ______. Should any item not provided by ______ malfunction and result in a service call, labor will be billed at $120 per hour with a minimum of one hour per service call. Labor will be billed hourly at a rate of $120 per hour to troubleshoot, diagnose, remove, ship, and re-install the defective unit. Any charges incurred in the shipping and repair of defective unit will be billed to Client. Billable time begins when the installer leaves our business location or the previous client's address and ends upon exiting the residence.

*Bench Test Defined

A full bench test will include at minimum:

-Photograph item for documentation.

-Take item to our shop. It is necessary to have a controlled environment with known sources, speakers, tools, clean power, and safety equipment to test equipment.

-Inspect item noting any blemishes, scratches, signs of abuse or damage.

-Document serial numbers and any other product information.

-Inspect and test all mechanical functions/connections.

-Connect each input/output one at a time to verify function.

-Connect item in the intended scenario to ensure stability (i.e. connect 5.1 speakers to a receiver if that is the intended purpose).

-Leave the item running for a minimum of 1 hour to check stability.

-Repackage item.

-Document all findings.

Minimum bench test time: 2 hours per component to be billed at $120 per hour.

By signing below, Client states that they have read and understand the above listed policies and procedures.



_______________________________________ Client Signature



_______________________________________ Printed Name



_______________________________________ Date

I am so stealing this. You can sue me in Utah!

You should try and use current terminology. Here is how your sentence should have been worded.......

I am so stealing this. You can Lutron me in Utah!