1. This is an issue between Employer and Employee, Not Employer and Client. The Employer should not have to say anything to the Client.

2. If a Client is trying to get the Employee to do A/V work on the side, than that's a little bit obnoxious. But if it's to help with non A/V work I think it's usually pretty harmless.

3. Employees should sign an agreement and understand they are not to undertake side work for the Employer's Clients under any circumstances without the permission of the Employer.

Great liner, oex.

As an owner/operator I occasionally get solicited for moonlight work. The funniest thing about it is that it's usually after 7:00pm when they're asking.

Moonlighting? I'm still here, right?

Family & friends of employees (when I had employees) were on the "ok to moonlight" list. However, I wanted to be privy to what they were up to so they wouldn't end up over their heads. My cost on most of the stuff.

My employees doing AV on the side for my clients: Time to walk the plank, dude.

I did have one employee stupid enough to tell me he was learning as much as he could from me for the next few months so him and a buddy could start their own AV business. With my enthusiastic encouragement he got started that day.

I like Damon's idea about a bone. My guy didn't think twice and told me about the situations. They have come up in the past and he's always told me that he turned it down per our rules and I have never said anything to a client about this issue. Perhaps he feels really loyal because I just cashed in mileage to fly his wife and him to Vegas for the weekend.

The solicitations were directly for AV work and were in the spirit of "Roland's rate of $75.00 an hour is too high... how 'bout if we do it on the weekend for half that cash". I know all of the reasons why I wouldn't authorize this but I really feel like I want both of the clients to know that I found out without making my guy seem like a schoolyard tattle-tail. I want to let them know that I'm not so f---g stupid that I wouldn't find out!

By the way... those of you who mention the insurance thing... you know...the guys not on the clock so he's not insured. Don't you think that if he does cause catastrophic damage that once a slimeball lawyer is done with his paltry holdings that said lawyer would find some way to bring the company to court as well?

I have the same family policy as Stew... and I do allow my guys to take tips even though it could come back to bite you if the client who gave it now expects something special. I figure a bit of walk around cash that didn't come out of my pocket is a good thing!

Stanley, I have heard the AV story... I didn't fare much better with my ex drunk, drugged up, deadbeat dad, bankrupt morally and financially partner either... but thats a different thread... or maybe a story better left untold as I hate dwelling on it.

Similar to when they think theyre doing you a favor, or that you'll give them a break/discount, if they make the check out to you personally as opposed to the business.

"Im the owner, so it makes no difference to me; it all goes into the same acct"

RHM9,

Now THAT'S the kind of appreciation I'm talking about. Also smart on your part, because it didn't really "cost" you to use your miles, per se. Trips (using miles)...dinners...maybe tickets to a show or ballgame - all good things that say "thanks! here's something you deserve that I thought you might like." None of them cost an arm and a leg and they are much more memorable than cash. That doesn't mean you shouldn't give cash bonuses that were clearly earned! lol ;)



Thank you,
Damon DG
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http://www.ProRemotes.com - Authorized Dealer & Remote Programming Services

My beef is that the customer is conspiring with the technician to steal money from me. The customer makes an offer of doing some "work on the side" in the hopes he will get a discount. The customer is not wondering if the parts that are being used on the "side job" have been paid for by the tech or whether he is just taking stock out of the truck. Who does the customer think paid for all the parts that are in the truck and the considerable expenses of bringing a truck to his house? All he is interested in is he is getting it done cheaper than if he had to pay my company for the work.

Any customer who approaches my techs to do side work are dirt bags and I let them know it because when you think about it, they aren't the type of customers that you want anyway. These people often can afford to pay they just want to get it done cheaper and in the process they are stealing money from me.

Dave T

Thank you QQQ... I was beginning to tink I was the only one who fel this was not a Client issue...

So the guy asked about Side work.... WHo cares?
I get asked about sidework on a regular basis.... I just say I'm not interested, I work enough hours as it is. The conversation ends and I continue working ont he clock for the company.

If these sidework conversations are going on longer than a couple minutes then its a exisiting issue between the client and the company or the company and the employee the client is soliciting.

Impaqt,


Who cares? I care. Many weeks I struggle to make sure that my employees get a paycheck. I pay them befor I pay myself. Maybe if you had to struggle to make payroll you would understand how sensitive an employer is about this kind of thing.

When a customer is trying to get a deal he is conspiring to steal from my company. I bring up the point again. Who does the customer thinks is paying for the parts that are being used on the side job?

I do see a slight difference if the employee makes the first offer to do the side job. I had a former customer call me once and complain about a side job done by an employee. Guess what. I fired the employee and told the customer that there was nothing that I would do about the job...he would have to contact the employee for warranty work.

I want to thank all the good employees who are loyal to their companies and turn down side jobs. A company is only as good as its employees.

Dave T

So Q and Impaqt...

I actually don't feel that there's any problem between me and my employees on this issue... they have signed the agreement and it's in their rulebook. They have told me when this has happened so as far as I'm concerned all is well on the homefront.

You guys must have the most amazingly successful businesses with clients just throwing money at you for this not to raise a few red flags. I'm struggling with the fact that it shows me that clients who I have formed a relationship with, that owe me money, effectively want to give it to me from behind sans lubricant. As stated... in the past I've stewed about it and made the determination that things are better left unsaid. It will most likely end up here again unless I come up with the perfect pearl of verbage.

If my guys wanted to mow some dudes lawn on the weekend I wouldn't care but its a hard road being responsible for the feeding of 14 people (employees, wives, kids) and their mortgages. Being the last guy to get paid means that you look pretty poorly on those who'd rather steal from you. One of the clients is a left over from my ex partner... a guy who we've made massive concessions to correct some big blunders made by EP. The guy had struck a discounted equipment deal with the EP that I've continued to honor. He does his own wiring, etc. and has paid us to come up and basically check things out. Now that it's trim time he wants us to devote a couple of days to his system. He lives 1 3/4 hours away by ferry so the only way this will work is to charge for travel time and a hotel room. Not soon after telling me to put him on the schedule... he approached my guy and told him he'd tell me he found "someone else" and it could be "their little secret". After all we've done for this f--k it feels like... well, read above!

Q and Impaqt, heartfelt congrats on your success... for the rest of you. Do you actually say anything back or do you just suck it up and hope your employees continue to take the high road?

That scenario you descibe sounds doomed from the get-go. Ex Partners are "EX" for a reason..... You continued to honor that arangement.... The guy was taking advantage of you from the start it seems.. Why would you be surprised, shocked, or outraged when he tried to get MORE? As I stated above..... If a CLient is asking about Sidework.. there is ausually already an issue. The scenario you describe above is NOT one I would put myself in.

Am I excessively successful? No.... The company I work for does fine. I do fine..... We, of course, have a no side work policy. ANd people do ask aour installers from time to time to do stuff on the side. Its there responsibility to say no thanks.

Budgets get blown, People have bad days in the market, or maybe they simply are looking to save where they can. --- OR--- they are unhappy with one part of the job, but like the installer thats there. Are any of those reasons to be upset with your client?


Again.... If the Sidework request is handled professionaly and quickly, the conversation ends, and you continue working onthe clock.

You wouldn't put yourself in that situation but most likely your employer would if you or someone else from your company had set the deal up and you were under contract. I actually wouldn't put myself in many of the positions my EP put me in and don't now that he's gone.

I wasn't aware that you work for someone else. Don't get me wrong, you may have owned your own firm at some point and even if you haven't I still value your input and have on many occasions.

I appreciate good employees... especially the ones I've got. I appreciate the input from those of you on the employee side here as well but I'm more likely to side with Dave because some of you have NO idea of the kind of sacrifice it takes to be an owner. You'd be pissed at me if I snuck into your office, pulled hard earned greenbacks out of your wallet and then smiled when I saw you... thats what it feels like when you bust your ass for 80+ hours a week to sometimes make less than your techs. When the last payment on a job is all you'll really ever take home... not some guaranteed bi-weekly paycheck it strikes a little differently.

I would like to ask... what kind of hidden issue is there when you lay things out up front... tell the clients what they're paying for gear and labor and they sign a contract. Sorry if the market busted... Sorry if the Change orders took you out of budget... Sorry if the tile guy got 20K more than he bid for.... I don't give a rats ass what your personal life is all about... if you conspire to steal from me I'm pissed at you... end of story... and it will certainly leave me a bit leary in any future dealings we have.

Is there a chance that the client hasn't thought it all the way through? This has been a bit of an eye opening discussion for me. At my last house, I asked the person who poured our driveway if they would pour a patio for us after we closed on the house. We agreed on the price and he did the work a few weekends later. At that time I was pretty happy with how it worked out.

After reading this, I realize that there were a few other things that happened that I'm not so happy about. He did not own the company, so I'm not sure where he got the skid steer to do a little grading, nor the pins to hold the forms. I guess it is possible that he rented the skid steer, which is what I assumed at the time, but now I'm not so sure. Also, I'm sure that his boss did not get any sort of cut from the work done...

CJ

CJ...

You bring up an excellent point. While I don't believe the above customer is "innocent" the other one may be... he's a 35 year Boeing guy whos never been on the business ownership side and might not have thought it through. i do always look at both sides before spewing off my mouth... thats why I posted here... mainly looking for what you'd say to the customer just to let him know diplomatically that this was not OK. Inside I may be fuming but it may not be a direct "f--k You Roland". I may add some language to the contract saying "client shall not ask employees of my company to perform the type of work on this contract outside of the relationship with the company or bring it up in the beginning... I don't know.

I guess this is what Impaqt and Q mean... that as long as you employees are on the straight and narrow this really doesn't go anywhere else. This is a good place to vent though and if something pisses me off... like this definitely does... then the relative anonimity provided here is a good place to let it spew.

I still pose the question... if you are the owner and this gets back to you... whats the nicest way to say it to the client... or is your vote not to say anything at all. Keep in mind there's still money owed so walking away is not the best option.

I would say that any client that is soliciting a tech to do side work is looking for a deal. They want to take advantage of the tech's skills, talents that were paid for by formal training in on the job training, things that cost the installing company money. That, by definition, is edging toward unethical. And I'm sure that most clients really wouldn't think of it as really unethical, but at the same time would never ask me if it was OK to hire my guys on the side. Human nature, I guess.