Instalz, I as a newbie of three yrs would not have tried the job you bid. I know what I know, and never bid on anything I can,t handle. Certified or not.

SG1

Well, It's an interesting paradox isn't it. On one hand, people are complaining about trunk slammers watering down the industry, doing shoddy work, and under cutting others that have been doing it for a long time and have gone through the school of hard knocks.

The lack of a government recognized, and electrical safety recognized association that deals strictly with the AV industry has created a void for experienced skilled people such as yourself in terms of a certification . As i tried to point out in my earlier post, the real learning and aquisition of experience comes from doing this stuff day in and day out. Hoever, the electrical code certification is something that dovetails with your insurance, and the inspection of work follwoing the completion of any project that is subject to electrical inspection.

It's possible that in your case, a letter to the electrical agency in your area describing your work experience and the history of your company would probably be enough for them to allow you to write an exam on the electrical code. Perhaps not in Chigago. I hear it's very tough there (conduit for all 70 volt runs, etc.)

The whole issue is kind of ironic. When the whole low voltage thing snowballed about ten years ago, and Data cable started flying out the door like it was going out of style, the very limitations of doing un qualified low voltage work cause many electricians and electrical firms to naturally take on things such as AV / data / tel / CCTV / alarm systems. In realty, most of these electricians were no more qualified to do this work (other than their code qualification) than a brick layer. The result was calls from electrics to AV firms to come and help them fix their problems. Sometimes those calls came from clients or project managers.

So, no doubt the industry needs some kind of a specific certification process that is regognized byt the el;ectrical saftey code certifiers, as wellas a specific AV industry agency that can qualify people that are not only entering the industry, but certify people such as yourself that have already acquired the skills and knowledge.

Sparkygod1, I hear you. That's why I stated that I wouldn't even consider a million dollar project. Too big, and I refuse to screw up my reputation taking on something that I can't handle. I have turned down a couple of big commercial jobs do to the fact that I am basically a one man show, and can't risk not being able to meet deadlines and being tied up on one particular job for too long.
The job that I am referring too is as big as I'll go. Reading and learning on this forum has also led me to believe that there is just as much money too be made in the smaller projects anyway.
One of the things that I've been struggling with lately is that I'm getting close to the point where I could possibly expand. I am torn, as I fear allowing someone (an employee) out in the field that could potentially give me a bad rep. Yes, I know that training is essential, but I don't care if you hire a guy that knows more than you do, that doesn't make him a conscious person. After all, it's my reputation on the line, not his. I hate to sound so pessimistic, but I worry about that. I just got the exclusive on an 88 home development. Remember, I'm a one man show (my wife works with me on occasion). The homes are going to be custom built, so it's not like they'll be cookie cutters that are all built in 6 months. Should be an awesome opportunity. Got it by word of mouth. Can't beat that huh?

Good point on the certification side. You can have all the knowledge in the world but, does your job show well. Do your customers call you,not to have you fix something, but to see how you are doing,or have you do other jobs for them,family and friends. Yeah.. they call. Lunch, tickets and other swag ;). I want to be a pro. I want the knowledge. I want to get that call that says;"hey I have a problem, can you help me out".

Instalz, sorry my point wasn’t clear. I agree with you that there are likely way more messed up jobs at the entry level then there are at the million dollar level. I wouldn’t know though because we are not in the million dollar level either, not anywhere near it. I used that to illustrate the wide diversity in the size and types of systems in the industry. A company shouldn’t have to be certified in systems that they will never do. That is my reasoning for wanting certification in different disciplines. A customer should be able to easily see what a company is certified to do and hire the appropriate company.
Be waiting for a call on that job, no way it gets done right by the electrician. Your adjusted price sounds right to me. Wow I just read your last post, congratulations on landing that development.

Wow has this struck a nerve with a few of you. I'm just as against hacks as anyone else and I've certainly cleaned up my share of installations from companies that have gone out of business. Yet I don't really see our industry as different from any other trade. Regardless of licensing you are going to have good companies and bad companies. I don't know how many houses I've been in where the electrical was absolute crap. But the job met code and was installed by a licensed electrician.

Closer to home would be large commercial installations. For those of you that have never set foot outside residential work or maybe your local restaurant, large commercial jobs are usually taken very seriously and often make what we do look like childs play, with the exception of those few companies truly doing integration on these massive homes. Yet even with detailed plans down to the last connector and lots of oversight these jobs often get completely screwed up for one reason or another. That's just the way it is in life and hopefully the crappy work eventually catches up with you.

As for the far too basic questions on this site. Well it's public. I've recently been spending far more time on IP for that reason and perhaps others will follow that trend. But basic questions alone is not a sign of dishonesty or a complete hack.

For education I always find myself comparing CEDIA to my experience at Syn-Aud-Con. It just couldn't be any different. Iv'e gotten some great info from CEDIA and certainly can see the benefit, primarily for the new guys. A week of Syn-Aud-Con left me with a comletely new and better understanding of audio engineering and acoustics. The program is geared towards commercial audio but the laws of physics still apply. Additionaly the credentials and manufacture support behind Syn-Aud-Con is on a completely different level from CEDIA. And yet I think that's as it should be. Just like a poorly installed fire alarm a bad public address system can be just as fatal. We saw some of that on September 11, 2001.

A poorly installed home theater is just that. It's not going to kill anyone.

Off to ask some basic questions.

I am certainly not convinced that every Crestron/AMX dealer is capable of doing the job especially with the independant programmer/installation house-dealer paradigm both manufacturers promote. First of all, few of the top CAIP firms would ever work for a residential firm. Too often, they do not often have the support documentation CAIP firms require. The idea behind the independant programmer is that talent will be available that the company otherwise could not afford. True but in the residential sphere I have taken over two jobs and passed on a third that were reasonably large ( though perhaps not $1 million ) and done so badly that I was stupified to the point that I began to have sympathy for the DIY complaints on AVS. If a 80k job is screwed up it is still what many of us and I am sure many end users would call a large job. When a job does not work is it the program, the installation or the equipment--of some combonation. When it fails, the independant progammer/dealer paradigm can do a great disservice to the client, in part because it permits those who are less than competant to attempt to do jobs that are beyond them. And if you cannot program and are taking on a subsystem you only partially understand and for which you totally depend on the programming abilities of others then what happens if the macro does not work as advertised?

I do not know what the answer is. Part of the problem as I suggested earlier is that the end user is partly responsible for this situation. With the exception of one of the jobs I took over the end user was responsible for selecting the contractor and in many respect they received what they paid for. In one instince I know that an unauthorized dealer sold and installed the equipment. Did the authorized dealer pay any price for selling this equipment to an unauthorized individual? In an other it was a "salon" and in 2 others it was just plain incompetance. In generalities, I see no evidence that clients desire anything more than the lowest price or put much stock in competance to the point that they are willing to pay for it. Manufacturers, reps, and distribution are also partly to blame for placing sales numbers ahead of competance. Clients want the lowest price, manufacturers just want sales and the person in the middle is the one who tries to do his best to learn and provide some sort of professionalism.

Were competance an issue, as opposed to sales, ADI, AVID, and the other rep distributors could demand that any purchaser prove he was in business for "x" years before sellng to them. But manufacturers demand increased sales and all parties cut corners to appease the devil. I believe CEDIA is more interested in generating income than providing proof of competance. State liscensing will yield as many problems as it does solutions ( this from someone who believes, all things being equal, that state regulation of industry ought to be a good thing. But who has also wrtten his thesis on the FCC and who has read the literature and knows that industry captures the regulartor agencies and then uses the power of the state to its own ends ).

Ultimately if CEDIA were not interested in lining its own pockets and the largest firms with protecting their own interests then they might permit someone to take their certification exams without the prerequsite course work. More importantly, they might undertake an advertising campaign to pursuade Mr. and Mrs. America that they are purchasing value by seeking out CEDIA certified contactors. But as long as builders and end users only want low prices, and the best of end users only the illusion of competance and so seek out retail establishments, we will have less than good installations. I think that were manufacturers to require that anyone selling their systems be responsible to prove that they are capable of installing and progrmming them we could nip many of these situations in the bud. Then again, someone might point out that it was I who wrote elsewhere that there is a difference between a 320x240 screen that was 3.9x 5.4 and one that was 320x240 and 5.6 x6.4. I think that Soundsgood and I are of similiar minds but I as I reread many of the responses I think there is still a wide stardard deviation in terms of how professional and professional work might be defined.

Alan

Chicago is the land of the immortal "I don't want to talk to nobody that nobody sent", which translates to if you are not connected getting ahead is tough. A friendly letter to the Chicago Building Department on the 7th floor of City Hall will be quickly lining the birdcage of someone's parrot. In this town, at least, that rule is there not to ensure experienced people, but to exclude those that are not part of the clan.

Instalz,

Congrats on the development... now... QUICKLY... find a good alarm guy/ wire puller with his own company to help you. You design and spec every house but you are going to need help. I have a company of 4 and on the last 35 house development we did we found that the resources necessary were pulling us away from customers. 88 houses in 6 months? You'll be buried. You can't forget one of the most important things which is that you won't make enough on the pre-wire... you need some end users... market them well. A lot of companies get buried with pre-wires and other integrators snag the finish work.

I stay out of developments and only work with total custom builders (the ones who do 1-2 houses a year). Whenever I get a pre-wire, I pay $50.00 an hour to a guy who has been pulling wire for 20 years and is 6'6" so he often doesn't need a ladder. I have been looking at the possibility of going back to a one man show from an economic standpoint and there is no way with my current volume that I could service over 1000 clients.

I agree with picking and choosing jobs. I had a guy hit me with a 7000 sq. ft house with automation on about every subsystem that was an hour by ferry and an hour by road each way... saw myself losing my shirt and politely referred him on to a company with more resources. This is actually one of the things that brings our industry down. If I'd taken that one and not provided the necessary service because I needed to keep my other jobs flowing I'd have left a pissed off customer. I'd be 2 hours from my shop and learning on the job. You bring up a good point about picking your niche and sticking with it. If a lot more of us did this, the "professionalism" would increase.

That and whenever a newbie gets the "entrepreneurial seizure" he/she should be forced to read Michael Berger's "the e-myth" and "the e-myth revisited".

there are some angry people on this one, hacks have made a lot of money for us,

when a client, builder, or architect gets burned by a hack and then has a good experience with a good contractor, they keep going back to and reffering the proffessional,

anyone else?

On the other hand, sometimes a good builder or architect (who have had a bad experience or two), cool off on the whole distributed audio - video - lighting control stuff and go without...
Can't tell you how many of the above, never want to deal with lighting control or automation systems either!

Very true.