RicoHD, I don't think that most questions when being ask honestly are stupid. We are all here seeking the benefit of each others knowledge. I was an electrician for about 25 yrs. Now I'm doing what I always wanted to do as it was my passion. Audio. Yes,AnthonyZ, I did work for Courtesy Electric ,but back then they didn't think pre-wiring was going anywhere when I was trying to tell them this was bigger than pooltables. I also have my CEDIA I, but I do plan to get the next certification. I hear they have a CEDIA school in Denver now. I don't know how far I have to go, or how much I have to know before I'm called a pro. But no matter how much I know there is always so much to learn.

SG1

Rico, Boss Q has given me permission to answer your question since he's in the middle of a $4.8 Million dollar install that needs to be done in 4 hours. Till then, I'll take a crack;

I think CEDIA Installer 1 would be good for someone new to the industry, or someone with a few years experience wanting some more credibiity. For someone such as QQQ (and I would hope myself) the cost to benefit ratio isn't palatable. It would cost me close to $3K after fees, airfare and hotel, so I would have to learn a lot of stuff to make it worth it.

If you could get there for cheap, get an employer to pay for it, and you're new, I'd say go for it. But short of that, just hooking up with a good crew and mentor and busting your butt for a few years will teach you way more than CEDIA in a few days.

Doopid,

I do think grandfathering in isn't fair, but I have to ask a question. If someone can prove so many years in the industry and pass a test (only offered to these prospects), should they be able to take that test and get accreditation without going through the whole rigamorol?

Maybe get points per years of proven experience or something. Sure beats just cutting a check and doesn't look so much like plain old graft and corruption.

I hear you.

Just so happens, an old established company, "sponsoring" the licensing exclaims, "we've been doing this for years and we don't have to take the test...we can write it".

That's all fine and good, but just so happens, it has been proven they've been doing it wrong all these years. Fortunately, no one has gotten hurt.

I'm not at liberty to give details. I don't want to bash any individuals...just making a point.

I think you miss my point--which is not "look at me and how smart I am." Each of the factoids I mentioned are about as basic as can be. Yet they may not be in any of our particular knowledge bases. The tidbit about serial protocols is something that was hammered home last year by a very nice degreed programmer when I was having trouble putting 2+2 together when I was looking at the way strings were returned on a terminal emulation program. The bit about RF comes straight out of Frank White's basic RF course he taught at CEDIA for years when he worked for Channel Plus.

I could go on and on about what basic information ought to be in every pro's handbook ( brain ). Does certification include knowledge of serial protocols? Should it? How about networking? Does it need to include building codes and if so need it to include commerical codes if you only work in residiential? Should it include rigging? RF? AC and DC electrical theroy? Soldering?

I will be the first to stipulate that there is a tremendous about of stupidity in residential contractors, myself included. The real question is not that many in this industry are not professional but how might one define professional? Crestron has a certification test for programmers. It includes many programming for many commercial systems that most residential contractors will never do and therefore don't need. Since most in residential do not bid a commerical jobs as independant programmers what's the point of that certification to a potential client? I might make the same case with respect to CEDIA certification. I'd argue that knowing that in AC circuits that capacitance and inductance are inversely related is knowledge for knowledge sake.

In the end, in residential, price rules. Which means Mr. and Mrs. America are more then willing to have semi-pros or amatures do their work as it is priced low. Commerical world will pay for professionals which is why certified technicians and programmers are a part of every bid. But since when do most jobs go to "professional," residential contractors? A salesman often makes the sale and most salesman are black holes of ignorence.

The fact is that we are generalists and we do need to know far too much information. That includes the arcane setup procedures for a Radio Ra or Graphik Eye system, Pioneer plasmas, deep control system programming, DBS systems, CATV systems and on and on. Life could be so much simplified if we did not need to constantly increase are knowledge base with respect to new devices and sub-systems. Knowing that no data network wire can have a bend greater than 30 degrees and being able to comply in a residential job without drop ceilings are two different matters. Most importantly, the infamous Kangis has argued that when the state ( his state ) began certifying alarm installs it did nothing to imporve the average installation in fact and merely provided an illusion of "professionalism." What is being tested, supervision ( and most inspectors are as clueless about low voltage as they typical "unprofessional" contractor ) and some agreement upon real world knowledge would be requred in a professional. What is automation and if you are a technician ought you to know anything about programming or serial signals? Part of being eligable to go for an electrical liscense is 7 years work experience. This is the biggest problem in our industry. Someone with no or little work experience opens a shop a begins to work on jobs. The beggest boost to professionalism may have only a little to do with book knowledge and a lot to do with a minimum amount of years in the business before one can open a shop.

Alan

Rico,

As I already said, I've asked my fair share of questions and will continue to do so. Plus, everyone has to start somewhere. If you read the entire thread (not sure if you have from your post), you'll see (I think) where I am coming from. You just happened to ask a question in another thread and I gave you an answer and some others were less kind. The fact that I didn't give you a hard time should help you to figure out where I am coming from. That's not what this thread was about. It's all about "context".

I'm upgrading a clients house...right now he has something called Crestron...i got a good deal on some Zantech equipment from a friend and thought i could make some good $$...:)...can I just connect the ir output wires from the connection hub thingy to the seriel jack on his Kaleidoscope? also whats the smallest wire I can run for speakers? also i hit a water pipe with a sawzall, do I have to fix it if it just runs down the outside wall and then away from teh house? i'm also trying to help him out so that he doesn't have to spend so much money in the future....has anyone used the wiring system by wesley?

CJ

If you hit a water pipe it is considered OK to use it as one conductor of the speaker wire run, but you'll need to go looking for the other pipe for the return conductor. Make sure to drain the water first.

Cool- do i need to rent pex crimpers to? Wonder if I can use teh power lines for the other conductor- gotta try it out.

CJ

I normally don’t post but this thread struck a nerve. We need to get the hacks out of this business; they are an anchor dragging down the entire industry. We now collectively have the credibility to customers and people in the industry ( builders, architects, interior designers) equal to that of used car salesmen. It is easy to see why. I was at manufacturer training at my local A**D ( I know, I know, but I need and entry level video projection line) and the questions being asked showed the blatant incompetence of many in our industry. If you are selling and installing projectors and have to ask what’s HDMI ?, what’s D65 ?, what’s rs232 ? and don’t know how to calculate a throw ratio, get some training before you touch another customer’s project or get out of the business.
One of the main problems is that there is no barrier to entry into this business. Startup capital costs are very small, no knowledge is required, and no testing is required. All you really need is a tax ID and a business card. This was evident at the training event, the room was packed and many of the participants were very green. I don’t think government licensing is the answer. If licensing covered all low voltage work then the cable company’s would need to have their outside contractors licensed. Even if the cable company’s were exempted the big box stores would still have to get their crews licensed. The kind of lobbying money that would be thrown around would water down the license to a point that anyone could pass the licensing test. There needs to be an industry based certification program where every aspect of what we do is covered individually. CEDIA can be the source of this but they have not been doing enough. To be CEDIA certified all you need is on guy to pass the installer level I test. I can take any average person and teach them what it would take to pass that test in a few days. A large company with 100 people only needs to have one person passes a simple test and the whole company is certified. There is a large operation near me and I wouldn’t trust their guys to plug in a clock radio but they are CEDIA certified. CEDIA certification in its current form is meaningless.
The testing needs to be job specific and much more difficult. What we do covers so many disciplines that a broad certification is inadequate. A better way to handle certification is to break everything down by discipline. Look at how the medical industry is structured. They have training and certification levels from Nurses Aid all the way up to Doctors with board certified specialties. Hanging a plasma and cutting in-wall speakers has very little to do with designing and programming a $1,000,000 whole house Crestron system. To be certified in a given area a company should have to have staff certified in that area and all work must be done by certified staff. Level I installers should be entry level guys that must be supervised on site by a Level II installer. Level II installer certification should be broken down by discipline and an installer should only be able to work on / supervise the disciplines in which he is certified. Same with a designer and all designs should be done by a certified designer and SIGNED, just like an architect. Programmers should have to pass a training course from the manufacturer of the equipment they are using (CAIP for example), and have CEDIA approve the course. Video and audio calibrations should also have standards; ISF and HAA are already in place and could be approved by CEDIA. All of the tests should have real teeth so you have to know your stuff to pass.
All of this would lead to credibility for the industry. Customers, builders, and architects would be easily able to determine if the company they were hiring was able to handle the specific job. Sure price only buyers would still hire hacks that will F**k the job up. Real customers would be able to evaluate a company and we would be able to sell our expertise to them based on a measurable standard.

I am putting on my flame proof suit now.

Don't forget, us Ol'Skool installas know a few tricks...

10. Use a sharpie to cover the scratches on the rack from setting your tools on top without a blanket, or without using the mucho amount of extra foam from the Extron parts boxes.

9. If you screw into a pipe, leave the screw there for a nice tight seal.

8. If you say sheetrock over a light carpet, you don't need to cover, just scrape the carpet vigorously to hide the dust.

I'll leave you guys to put in 7 through 2....

And the Number One Ol'Skool Installa trick used by the pros (drumroll please);

If an IR or 232 command doesn't work for a controlled device, program a macro to send the same command 10 times. One of them will get through.

The first thing that you can identify in terms of establishing a criterea for pro or non pro would be to distinguish people with electrical code certifications (as per their area's requirements) and those without them. In my area, you have to posess an electrical qualification certificate in order to pull permit. In my case, the classification is "LO, or "Low energy systems". this required two years of working for a certified outfit, a letter of completion of experience in roughing in wire, etc. Then a written exam by the electrical code safety association that certifies ticket holders. It's amazing how many people doing this kind of work haven't got this certification.

That ticket should be the bottom line. But like a doctor just fresh out of med school, there is a whole road of practical experience ahead. Not everyone is going to come accross a lathe and lpaster ceiling early on, depends on their region. I think there are a lot of little things that require practical experience in order to become competent in doing. So you not only have to develop technical skills in the field, but you also have to become skilled and handy at installation techniques. After all, this is really a sub trade of construction.

OK, fine. I'll be devil's advocate here, although I support state-recognized certification.

Here in Chicago you need a city electrician's licence to legally pull a low voltage permit and pull wire. In order to get the licence you need to work somewhere for two years under a licensed electrician, and then get an endorsing letter from him or her before being able to take the test.

Now, I'm self employed. In order to do this legitimately I need to leave my own company, go work for someone else for two years, and then apply to take the test?

You and I both know that won't work in this industry, if only for the fact that the phenomenal growth in this industry segment would not support the scarcity of labor called for by this two year ersatz apprenticeship. Cheating on a massive scale is the current result. Do you have another process that allows jamokes like me to become certified?

If you want to be treated like pro's, some sort of professionalism has ton come from you. there are people out here making the trunk slammers look good, granted. but at the same time if you see someone who wants to get into the business and they're going to get in no matter what. If you catch them early, try being a mentor not putting "foot to a**". Everyone starts at the bottom. Certification is a good idea, but remember everything the govenment gets it's hands on slows the wheels down. You do know you will have to go down to the city to get a permit for some jobs.

SG1

Soundsgood, any consumer who spends a million dollars on a Crestron system, is going to spend more time shopping the job than a customer who is getting a 5,000 surround sound set up. I find it hard to believe that there is all that much hacking going on with a million dollar system. In fact, I find it hard to believe that a half a**ed company would even know how to spec out a million dollar job. That would be like giving me a million dollars to go on a clothes shopping spree. Someone who is used to spending big money on clothing is going to hit Rodeo drive, where as I'm going to the local Levi's oulet store.
After spending a few days watching/reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that there are actually many different line items here.
I think that there are many more botched smaller jobs out there then there are multi million dollar jobs.
Or even 250,000 jobs. Example: I recently gave 4 seperate estimates to a customer over a 4 month period for a commercial job. The job was made up of a small 4 computer network with 2 wireless access points for future use, a JBL 16 speaker 70volt system with a Bogen amp/mixer, and an inter-tel encore phone system with 17 ex1000 phones. I was only wiring the network (no network equipment), total quote for wiring 70v, V/C's, speakers, amp, phone system and wiring, 11,200.00. The customer kept changing their minds on what they wanted so this was the final estimate that I gave. The general contractor saw my quote, he told the customer that the electrician will do the entire job with the needed equipment for 5,500.00. I lost the job. I know damn good and well that I am going to be getting a call when the job is done. They are not going to get what they want. I think that these are the jobs that we see problems with more than the big money jobs. Just for the record, if I do get the call, the price will be 22,400 firm....
Also, you will never have to worry about me messing with a 1 million dollar Crestron job. To big for this guy :)