Ya, that's how my heart surgeon is. Every once in a while he forgets what an aorta and a ventricle is. Other than that the guy's just fine.

Obviously the consequences for low voltage wire are a little less dire than for your ticker. That's why most of us probably aren't as rich as your heart surgeon. However, it definitely would behoove anyone who wants to make big bucks and work on complex systems to get the training.

Off topic, but I just want to say that I'm thrilled to be a founding member all of a sudden. I remember when Daniel and I were just talking about it..........

And obviously that was not my point :-).

I think you guys are comparing apples to oranges. A surgeon is specialized, dealing with one aspect of your internal body (heart, lungs, etc.). We deal with everything that all the other trades don't want to (phones, network, TV, lighting, central vac, security, intercom, cameras, audio, etc.). I am in no way specialized, nor do I claim to be. We do more phone/TV/networking than most, but for the most part we dabble in a little of everything. Why? Because no one else will, and the H/O wants the stuff and it is somewhat similiar to something else we do. How do you certify that? Would you have a different cert for every area? I don't think CEDIA is the right answer for certs when they are doing NOTHING to promote the industry as a whole. This is exactly the reason I dropped out.

I also disagree with you assesment of commercial jobs. I am not sure what part of the country (or world) you are in, but my opinion of unions has become worse the more commercial I do. Commercial jobs are always slower paced and over staffed. My brother is in the process of building a new building for his business and the amount of labor that is REQUIRED by the unions is ridiculous. For example, to pour the floor required 1 laborer for every 1,000 square foot. Since it was 21,000 sf that means there was 21 guys, plus 5 finishers. The contractor even told him that he could do the job faster with 11 guys total. How is that better for the consumer or the industry? I know we do a lot different work than concrete guys, but this is typical of the unions in this area. I have also seen unions protect guys that should have been thrown out a long time ago. Guys that just don't care about the work they do or how it is going to effect anyone else. Guys that show up when they want and leave when they want regardless of the schedule. By the way, the unions are very strong in middle america.

It's like almost any other industry though.

You know how many woodworkers I've seen have to cut and re-cut the same friggin piece? Or how may corner mechanics/gas stations taht shouldnt be changing your oil, but are more than happy to bleed your brakes?

I had an interesting situation come up the other day. Friend wants me to train a friend of his to get into this industry. Hes a data guy, but wants to do the full boat, installs, design, you name it. So I was thinking about this.....and with all the speakers I've cut in, wires I've run, etc......I couldnt figure out how to explain the simple fact of how to measure correctly. I jsut do it, I don't even think about it anymore. But I honestly could not come up with a simple way to explain it, other than to watch me. Now, part of this is me not being able to put my actions into words and the other is that A) I havent been doing as many speaker and plasma installs myself, and B) you become numb to it after awhile, you just go off your gut, like second nature. And yes, we ALL forget things, brain farts now and then. And if you say you don't, your a liar. Just the other week I was sitting in front of RTI software, forgot to put my all on/off buttons in there. It happens.

Best thing to do is ignore the ingrates. Nothing you can do about them. Prove to people why your worth more, why your work is superior, why they should be paying for your intelligence. And if they don't fall for it, leave them a toploader.

As a comparison, we also install alarm systems and about 5-6 years ago our state started requiring licensing, certification and CEUs to maintain said license. All of this is governed by the state department of professional licensing. Most of this was pushed by the National burglar and fire alarm association and the Security industry association. In essence, if you can't pass a test that covers things like switch types, building codes, communication formats, etc, you can't get a license. And similar to most electrical license requirements you have to complete 16 ceu hours every two years to maintain it.

The best part is anyone that sells, installs, or services a security system, which includes cameras that doesn't have a license is subject to a $1000 fine and the contractor(or homeowner)is subject to the same fine. With repeated offenses resulting in loss of license permanently. This has almost completely curtailed trunkslammers.

If something like this could happen in the av industry, it would make a huge difference. Instead of a private organization like cedia, if you can get the aid of a little government control or requirements, you have a lot stronger hand. As I see it, cedia should have the motivation(and financial ability) of pushing legislation because they are already setup to make money on teaching and testing and receive a good ROI.

I don't know that it could be done though because there is not a life safety issue which is what pushes most other trade license and building requirements. Somebody would have to be seriously injured or die as a result of a bad speaker install which I don't see happening.

I think you are right.

People are scared to fix their own cars. The wife isnt going to allow Joey Weekend Husband to fix her slipping transmission, but she will let him fiddle with a home theater in the basement. Then when he F's it up to no end, he still thinks its simple when he gives you the call. because its sold at BB and all that, people think its easy, and miss the whole point of what a true system should provide. If they started selling Romex and outlets at the check outs of these store, I could guarantee you there would be a rise in residential electrical fires. "Look honey, we got your new vacuum, how about we grab some of this wire and put in a new outlet behind the couch for you to plug it into"

Its like Home Depot. They can pretty much guarantee they are going to sell 50% of the their products twice. Once to the homeowner, then again to the pro who has to come in and fix it.

Ok, im way, way off topic here. But my point is, and that is if I have to have a point, is that its not just the clowns in the industry who make us look bad. A lot of it is public perception that starts before you ever even get to quote them. Then the trunkies come in, undersell them, and they never get to know what a good system is. Its a big combination of issues and I better go start drinking before I talk myself to death here.

The part that irriratates me is when the incompetent boobs manage to get projects with good people that ARE looking for quality but get taken. Case in point is a cabinet maker I know. Screws up every single job he's on but keeps doing well because he's articulate and well dressed. Nothing wrong with that of course - my point is simply that he has no competence to back it up. When I see it happen in our industry it bothers me. I don't care about seeing the guy that's always looking for the lowest price on the planet get screwed because that guy always screws himself anyhow. But I see a lot of good people being taken advantage of as well.

But like you said, "it's like almost any other industry though"...

Looks like you've run into a few bastardized jobs lately Q,

I've posted before about the fact that I'm waiting for the 60 minutes "Expose" on the new used car salesmen running around butchering up your house. I don't know what it is that draws so many new people to our industry other than the fact that we work with cool stuff... there are certainly more profitable businesses out there.

Yesterday I met a new client at his 1.5M house that was just built. He wants a networked media server. I went to his "wirebox" only to find all of the RG6 cables (single run to every drop) and Cat5's (single run to every drop) hanging out of an 18" box with a myriad of 2 and three way splitters and the phone wire labeled but stripped way back and wirenutted together. He used a Green sharpie to label the wires on the back of the box (you know... the area where the MODULES are supposed to be). When his green one ran out (3/4 of the way) he switched to blue. Room names are horribly mis-spelled. Last year we found a 2.6M house where all of the RG6 was squashed flat with romex staples and completely unusable by the same builder in the same neighborhood. When we approached him he said he had a guy and didn't want to talk to anyone else... even after we explained what a crap job he was getting. Makes me wonder what sort of oral sexual favors are being performed here...

QQQ, in my opinion, you are almost always right on the head but this is the first time I've seen you concerned about this... you've even railed me for bitching too much about it before and told me to find the right clients and leave ones like this alone. I have long been concerned about how annoyingly easy it is for any Tom's Dick is Hairy to go into a disty center and further erode our industry in both quality and pricing. My jealousy is hard to contain when I know that someone who just shouldn't even be touching this stuff miraculously ties up the builder of some gorgeous homes and gets the up front budget... leaving me with the fix-it budget which is low due to the exhorbitant amount already gone. Don't get me wrong... I charge well for fix-its but my anger goes beyond my own personal thing and is there because I feel the same way you do about the fact that our industry is suffering. I'm an old dog... 23 years now of doing the same thing. I have a brother-in-law who ships seafood and makes $250,000.00 a year working three days a week so I could make more somewhere else. I stay with it because I love what I do... even though the Ferrari I want will always be in my clients garage... thats why it pisses me off... If you aren't going to spend every day doing the best work you possibly can than get your quick buck ass out of our yard and go play down on auto row.

Way to pose the question Q, we are in need of reform... but from where? Which of us besides Wesley Mullings is so altruistic and has enough time to singlehandedly fix this?
Most of us I'm sure are busy enough making the ends meet.

If we all just followed Wesley's standards we would not have any problems, now would we??

Q, I hear what your saying, and I agree with some of it. But if you were to look at the whole picture when it comes to this industry I think you will see that there is no easy answer. And I think that the words Incompetent, Hack, and Trunk Slammer are used far too much to describe lack of experience. Many people want to do a good job, lose money learning how to do a good job, and go out of their way to satisfy their customers in doing a good job.
Think about this. How many of you have had distributors that you tried to lean on for help, only to find out the hard way that they knew less about something than you did, yet they gave you some BS answer? So, are they qualified to sell to you?
How about going into a big box store and listening to some kid tell you BS about something he knows nothing about? Yet he sells thousands of dollars worth of equipment each week?
Most consumers listen to him, because he works in a nice looking establishment that has really great commercials. How many car salepeople are out there that sell the shit out of cars, and don't know how to unscrew a gas cap?
I think that the real issue is that, in this business you need to be a techie, but you also need to be hands on, and mechanically inclined. Anybody can sell a product, and that's part of what we do. The problem is that you have to be there when its all hooked up, and make sure it works, and that the customer understands it. We sell, we spec out, we cut holes, we fish wire, we program. We form relationships with our customers. We're on their turf, in their home. That's the big difference. There are really smart guys out there that can't carry on a conversation with a melon, say nothing about a customer. So add good listener, and tactfullness to our list of qualifications.
I personally know far less about this business than most on this forum, and I'm not afraid to admit it. (Although I have been able to help a few people:)
Every job that I have done, my customers are happy with. I get allot of referrals. I also know my limitations. For instance, I wouldn't even consider taking on an automation job.
It's over my head, and I don't have the time to try to learn it in the field. Most of what I do are small surround jobs, plasma hanging, a few plasma lifts, a ton of network wiring, home networks, a little CCTV, telephone, and I do commercial installations for the local catv company.
There is definitely allot to learn in this business, and the hardest part of it is learning how to do something, and then not doing it again for a few months. That really sucks.
There are qualified installers out there who don't do good work. Who leave jobs unfinished, and who really could care less about their customers. Then there are guys who may not know as much, but they finish what they start, and care about their reputation enough to do a good job.
I think that allot of what goes on here is pretty typical. It's called justifying ones existence. Everybody does it. Doctor's, Lawyers, Cops, and CI's:)
If someone stopped me tomorrow, and told me that they were starting a CI business in my town, I would shake their hand, and wish them luck.
Because if you set aside the knowledge needed to do tel, network, theatres, and so on, there is still the issue of surviving start up. Having enough money to get your business up and running, and having the smarts to take care of business.
That's the real work.
I think that licensing is a great idea, and I think that anyone who has been doing some form of low voltage for 5 or more years should embrace it, as you would most likely be grandfathered in anyway. It will be the new starts that will have to go through the testing. It would make Justifying our Existents that much easier. LOL...
Well, hopefully my comments haven't pissed anybody off. That wasn't my intention.

Instalz,

Lots of good thoughts.

Thanks Q...