Ya know, this debate has been going on since Cobra cable and turntable mats. I am not a physicist but there are plenty of scientists and researchers in the industry that have proven you wrong if you insist that cat5 is sufficient as speaker wire. I don't even believe you believe it.

More than happy to be proven wrong Shoe, the problem is you have failed to do that. You don't site any ACTUAL scientists or researches. You just throw out foggy notions pulled from the deep recesses of your bowels because apparently you can HEAR things that can't be MEASURED. Your assertion that better cable = better sound is also laughable. If cable A is engineered and sweep tested to 1GHz and cable B is good to 3GHz is cable B "BETTER"? Empirically, yes. Does it cost more? Almost certainly. Does it carry 15KHz audio any better? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Also, I don't LISTEN to music through my spectrum analyzer (whatever that means) as you suggest. But I do use my spectrum analyzer and other instruments to compare system performance, because these instruments are OB-JECTIVE whereas human hearing is very SUB-JECTIVE and not a reliable indicator of performance. If you are actually "in the business" I think you are doing your customers a great disservice by giving them false information. You can make even more money by selling snake oil on the side.

This message was edited by EngineerFriend on 11/29/03 12:02.

Check out the AES if you want reports of scientists and researchers. I'm sure you have many satisfied customers whose systems you wired up with Cat5. Do any of them require deep powerful bass? I don't sell my customers systems where the speaker wites are Cat5 and tell them I've taken care of them, that would be selling them snake oil. I'm not out to prove you wrong. I'm quite happy to have competitors out there selling poorly designed systems so I can point out how the customer is being screwed. Maybe you should actually listen to the systems you design. I'm sure all those elevators have great sound.

I'm sure you have many satisfied

Pay attention Shoe, I didn't say I actually wired houses with cat5, I think this clearly illustrates your lack of attention to detail. Likewise, I am quite happy to explain to your customers how they were ripped off by paying for things they didn't need. The government regulates this kind of activity in other profesions. Fortunately for you, they haven't gotten to our industry yet. Maybe if you tried listening to your CUSTOMERS you might find out exactly what they want and need. MY customers are very happy to pay me to consult with them and create the best system for their budget.

This message was edited by EngineerFriend on 11/29/03 12:59.

This is hugely entertaining reading until people start insulting each other personally. It is simply not necessary.

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com
"Snake oil sold here frequently..."

Phone 1-800-247-7001

Like Monster cable.

Eric, I'm really not as emotionally distraught as EngrineerFriend about this issue. I'm really just funnin him at this point. I though the elevator comment was pretty funny. And Friend, this argument been going on a long time before this forum ever existed. Your not going to end it now but it's pretty entertaining that you think "you" can. Have a little tolerance and open your mind, you will find that the answer is found in the middle somewhere. BTW, I don't sell Monster Cable or Bose (though Bose is a possibility, some people really like it.)

(though Bose is a possibility, some people

wind up merchant!!

Bob, I don't know what wind up merchant means, I'm sure it wasn't a compliment. I find some people in this business have taken the stance that the merchant is always right. I disagree. I worked for a large custom retailer that sold Bose. As much as I dislike their product, it was my job to survey the job site and implement the installation. The people who had auditioned and chose Bose were happy and if they were happy, I was happy. I serve the customer. If on the otherhand I am in a position to give a recommendation, then I can qualify my customer and serve them best by showing them what I think will fit their needs and budget best. Some people really like Bose no matter what you show them. I don't sell Bose for the same reason I don't sell Monster; I don't believe in the product. But, I am in business to make money and depending on your target customer, different products become viable. So let me repeat myself, some people really like Bose, so as long as they don't depend on me to push the product, what is wrong with serving the customers wants and needs by saying, "you would like a Bose today sir, here it is. Will that be cash or charge?" Why should I let the business and a potential happy customer walk out the door? How often do you turn business away? I haven't taken on the line yet and probably never will but I'm not clear on why as a retailer I shouldn't offer a popular system that is probably the biggest seller on the face of the earth. OK let it come.

This message was edited by Shoe on 11/29/03 18:27.

My guess is that it means a non-brain-using clerk, on auto-pilot, cookie-cutter, run-of-the-mill, has-no-talent (or taste), etc.

Larry

I thought it would be something like that. Did you ever get that DVD player working? I was curious how that worked out.

I'm not distraught either. I can take the heat so flame on. I did like the comment about the elevators. In fact, I have wired a few elevators, but only for phones and I DID use cat5. Now, you keep telling me to "open my mind", but it appears to me that you are the close minded one. If someone with more education and experience than me told me something that differed from my beliefs I would at least look into it rather than dismiss it out of hand. That is the essence of close mindedness. My mind is very open, in fact, I wish I was wrong. It would be much easier and profitable for me to spew a bunch of garbage about expensive cables improving system performance. The evidence suggests just the opposite is true, but I know you're not interested in details like facts. It's much easier to believe whatever the manufacturer tells you, after all, they NEVER lie.

Avdude, here goes.

I spent 10 years as an accountant and AV meddeler before i got into custom installing. I am an engineer. (almost, finishing those final credits.) And preparing for LSATs' (shudder)


While i am not the biggest fan of Monster cable. Listening, to cheap cables has proved to me that better cables sound better.

Personally i prefer Straightwire, or Nordost. But if you are a critical listener( you listen to music as an activity not just as background sound) I think you can definitely hear a difference.

EF, I just don't believe that adopting an attitude that it can't be done is open minded. Almost anything that supposedly couldn't be done has been or I believe will be. If you log onto Audio by Van Alstine http://www.avahifi.com/ and read his experience testing cables and his conclusion you might open up a little. He has always been a proponent of engineering is everything wire and exotic materials is BS

Sorry, Shoe, avdude got me drunk, but apparently not as drunk as you. I think you're telling me to check out the website, so I will do this in the morning when I give a s**t again. Can we say shit on this forum? Pleasant dreams.