this is absolutely another topic. I never said that you shouldn't buy 25K speaker cables, just that the claims made about the difference in sound quality are BS.

Right on Ted. Since we are the "pros" I think it's up to us to educate our customers. I believe the best equipment should alter the original recording as little as possible. Tube amps and some high end cables alter the sound quite a bit. If the customer truly wants this, fine. They should just know exactly what they're paying for. BTW, you can achieve the same effect of high end cables with $1 worth of inductors and capacitors from Digikey.

actually you might be right. I'm assuming MIT still uses the "magic" boxes on the cable which can be proven to cause drastic change in the sound reproduction as you are actually adding a component to the cable. The debate is no longer just " my copper is bigger and better than yours"

but yes, I'd like two of those customers a week please, hell why not three.

EngineerFriend, are you saying tube amps are distorted but solid state amps are inherently accurate? And if that is so, are your opinions based on reading and mathematics or listening comparisons?

I have read posts about this all over the place.And I have added my 2 cents to this one, but I should clarify my experience. Way back when I was in retail, it took the various sales rep's along time to convince me to sell "cables" They kept giving me fluff about how it will make the systems I sold "sound" better. Then one day a smart sales rep told me I should be selling cables and wire because it is profitable and they are better than the ones in the box (better connections, shielding etc)No BS, and a good enough reason to start selling. I have been doing strictly custom systems for the last number of years and the wire&cable issue was never really a big deal anymore, yes I install "better" cables in my systems (not name brand, nor are they expensive) BUT!!! I have recently installed one of the most expensive home theaters north of the border (over 2 mil) obviously in this range the equipment is very esoteric high end, not all items were sold by the company I work for, deals were made etc etc. During the installation I had speakers worth over 80k a pair hooked up to amps that were worth about 50k ea and alot of other gear in the same leauge, even the sub was about 60k. So to get things working we hooked up the system with temporary wire and cable (old stuff from the clients other high end theater system).Things sounded good (as one would hope they should), but once the wire and cables the client purchased arrived and were installed, holy crap, what a difference. It was like a completely different system. Now I am not some "audiophile" in fact I am more of a videophile, but I know what I and the others that were helping me heard. I would guess that the kind of power and current or whatever that the speakers needed and the amps delivered in this case played a role in why the cables could possibly make a difference, and maybe someone could shed some light on this. I have tried to hear the differences before on modest systems (5k to 50k range) and told the rep's they were full of it, monster this to trib that or wire world and the like, I couldn't hear any difference, or justify spending 1000's on wire and cable, but when I heard this ultra high end system with the top Kimber Kables hooked up, it was suprising. So, I keep reading that the wire and cable doesn't make a difference, but in this case it did. Any one that might have an explaination, I would love to hear it and so would many others I am sure. (just a side note, the room was designed and built to be acoustically ideal for the equipment being used, and all measurments were within the expected ranges)

I can tell you from experiance that it wasn't just the gauge of the wire that makes the difference though you probably upped the amount of copper or silver when you went to the higher end cables. You can't expect to hear the same quality of sound from mainstream consumer equipment and state of the art equipment. Notice I didn't qualify by price. There is really good equipment available for a fraction of the prices you mentioned. What equipment are you talking about? Those prices are really up there. You should get a very high level of audio performsnce in a 50k system unless 40k is going into the video

. I believe

I agree with the above statement years ago when i was in retail .Nigel kennedy a famous violin player was quite popular with his version of four seasons .
now i demonstated this disc many times to many customers and a lot said those violins sound shrill .Violins in the real world sound shrill ! Those customers didnt go and listen to what Real live music sounded like and had no point of reference.
most music they heard was on crappy radios or supermarket background sound these people wanted an easy listening sound.
some customers would bring in a rock CD and say that rock music was a bit fatiguing on a certain set up .I would ask them had they heard there rock band live they would always say no.Symbols played loud and for a long time ISNT that pleasant.
I have used cables to tailor a sound to a customers taste.Often in my opinion making the sound worse but to the customers taste .
I used to have customers who owned Bose speakers and they had become so used to the way they sound that they "didnt like how forcefull the vocals sounded" they often took offense when i said thats called midrange sir.
I dont deny cables make a difference but its the "better" promises and by how much they "improve" the sound per pound that bothers me.
surely its how little they degrade the sound there can only be so much performance from the equipment in the first place.
you would not get that in the advertising "our cable doesnt degrade the sound as much as brand x cable"

one sight you can find this ULTRA high end stuff on is www.audioreview.com

There are many speakers out there that cost between 80k-120k per pair

There are several amps (including Boulder and Krell) that can blast the 50k barrier
And MIT DOES make 13k EACH interconnects (with the little magic boxes)

check out that site...it sure opened my eyes years ago as to the truly absurd levels that have been obtained in our industry....

also, check out some of the PICTURES of sirroiundsounds super theater in the gallery on www.integrationpros.com

avdude

alright!!! I think we're finally starting to get somewhere. I don't mean to rag, but I've just had to listen to so much BS over the years that I'm not very patient any more. Read the ecoustic link from avdude's reply, it spells it out pefectly. Manufacturers can and do make cable that alters sound. Can we all agree that the "best system" is one that alters the original recording the least? Shoe, I am indeed saying that solid state circuits have a more LINEAR frequency response than tubes. It is an absolute fact. Do they sound different? Yes, drastically. Tubes are rolling off the high frequencies causing "audiophiles" to claim that the sound is "warmer" or "fill in your own flowery adjective here". If you like the sound of tubes or expensive cables, fine. Just don't try to tell me it's more accurate. If you really like messing around with your sound, buy a Yamaha receiver and start punching the sound field buttons til you get something you like.

ose prices are really up there. You should get a very high level of audio performance in a 50k system unless 40k is going into the video

don't forget he is from Canada.

If the price he quoted is Canadian then that means that 50K C$ is more or less 30K US$

I don't have much time to play tonight but: If all equipment interfaced equally you could use one cable to connect this perfect equipment. But there isn't any perfect equipment. So sometimes different cable can equalize(pun intended? I'm not sure) differences between equipment. I believe we all choose the distortion we like even if we're in denial about it. We don't want to alter the sound of the recording but since recorded music will never sound live when compared to the real thing maybe you do need to change something. Every room you listen to it in, any ambient noise, any electrical fluctuation will change sound away from the original. I'm going with the opposite of any engineer's sensibility. Whatever allows you to connect emotionally to the music and gives the illusion of live music is what an audiophile strives to accomplish with his system. Ther are a number of tube amps that do not roll off the highs. They don't all have transformers. On the other hand transformers can help match amplifiers to the speakers they drive. Take McIntosh for example. They use output transformers on both tube and solid state. I think the real problem with the strict engineering approach is that it is too close minded to anything new or theoretical. In the engineer's context, you need the perfect electronics, the perfect media, the perfect wire, the perfect room and the perfect recording to have a reproduction of the musical experience. It is not possible to achieve that perfection but, with careful matching of imperfect components, including cable, the end result might be musically satisfying. In solid state gear, I'll take Jeff Rowland anytime over Krell

Shoe, you have definitely lost your mind. Are you seriously insinuating that different pieces of equuipment compensate each other exactly? Your chances of winning power ball are much better. I know I'm essentially telling you there's no Santa Claus, but that is the case. I know you'd like to believe that there is some MAGIC in those black boxes and cables, but it just ain't so. The most sophisticated piece of equipment, electronically, in your rack is probably your satellite receiver and it's probably the least expensive. People spend exorbitant amounts of money on equipment and I suspect it's mostly for status. Audio frequency electronics is just NOT that complex. I'm sure your audiophile ego is having a problem with that.


Not true. I am suggesting that you don't need this.


This is just BS, you're grasping at straws. This is like saying "if you do 5 things wrong on a golf shot that you'll hit a hole in one."

P.S. Happy Holidays

This message was edited by EngineerFriend on 11/27/03 20:12.

Of course... Size (and quality) matters when it comes to cabling. It's simple. The better the wire, the better the signal and overall inherant performance from the completed installation. Not to mention fewer problems related to wiring in six months, a year, or 20 years.

If you traffic a load meant for a 4-lane highway down a 2-lane road over time, that road is going to degrade. I've seen it with my own eyes, (Cat5 running stuff it shouldn't)and seen and heard the results after fixing wiring jobs that were installed by people who think the same as your friend. Those customers wasted money on having the work corrected. The problem is not the customer however, it's the contractor that sold them the wire in the first place that should be blamed. I'm shocked that an E.E. would have this opinion about such a basic thing as physics.

Though he does concede that the signal would only be different, and not better, is certainly an indication to me that he knows better and he's just trying to get a rise out of you.

In my humble opinion, there's no substitute for doing it right the first time.

I'm saying that in a high end system you do use components that compensate each other. If all components sound the same to you, then enjoy Bose my EngineerFriend. You might want to visit the audiologist toute suite or at least listen to compponents in a controlled situation. I never went in for magic bricks or some of the other interesting tweaks I've heard about but when I buy equipment I buy what I like, spec sheets aren't a reliable gauge of sound quality. I'm perfectly happy if you enjoy your music on a spectrum analyser or DMM but I use my ears when making my choices. 30 years of experience tells me I know what I like. BTW, you can reproduce your exremely linear signal into a room that will totally destroy any semblence to the original recording in the original space. For the record, I don't own any Krell or Levinson or McIntosh, my car is the most expensive thing I almost own and my ego can stand other people having different views. Thanks, and Happy Holidays to you and yours.

I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. You guys continue to misquote me. Staticband: your analogy about the 2 lane vs 4 lane highway is a common mistake that many people make. The correct analogy would be a 10 lane highway vs a 100 lane highway. ie cat5 can carry a lot more current than you think. Do you even know what cat5 can carry and what the limiting factors are? hmmmm. I'm sick of people claiming to understand physics by quoting lame analogies about highways and water pipes AC electricity is different. BTW I don't use cat5 to run audio, I use higher gauge wire to be on the safe side. And once again Shoe: spend your money on whatever sounds good to your golden ears. I'm just saying there is very little measurable difference between systems. I'm not advocating Bose however. There are definitely measurable differences there. They do it on purpose, because marketing people know that if Joe Consumer actually hears a difference he will assume it is an improvement. You are 100% correct about room acoustics. This is where I would spend my money to improve sound.