Heres an example in my opinion of a dubious graph i found on a cable web site

Exactly my point Bob. What are the units of "sweetness" or "dimensionality"? Lots of people have brought up good reasons for using higher end cables and I do use them for those reasons (ie better connections, cut to length etc), but I stand by my statement that patch cords do not affect "bass" or "soundstage" or anything else. P.S. I do believe in using shielded or balanced cable, but this is to keep noise out of your system which I consider to be a separate issue.

Well it certainly has been an interesting read hasn't it. Many of us have heard significant differences in audio cables on hifi systems, myself included. The problem is the physics and the scientific testing just doesn't bear this out. Any percieved improvement in sound quality from high-end wire is an opinion. If that's your opinion I'm OK with that just make sure you understand that the science doesn't agree with you, even if you do the tests with a $75,000 pair of speakers. This is not meant to be harsh, just what I consider to be the reality of the issue. There is simply no way to prove the audible difference in wire over the distances in an average home sound system. Video is completely different and easily measured.

what about using an acoustic analyzer, obviously if you can hear a difference it has to be measurable?
Most of the discussion has been based on the principles of the wire itself and how it shouldn't have any effect, even tho many of us have heard something (good, bad or indifferent).Those who haven't will one day be exposed to this phenomena.

$1539.00 Dollars for an IEC mains lead (£940 uk)doesnt make sense to me.
but one site tells me this lead will be so addictive i couldnt live without it.
That the improvements in sound are worth $1539!
They even have an accessorie for equipment with built in mains leads (often but not always cheap and nasty equipment)so you cut the lead near the equipment, wire up the adaptor socket then you could use the above lead and it would still make a massive difference.
They tell you on the site not to worry about the two inches or so of thin cable before it goes into the product it doesnt matter.

Now i understand RF interference travels down the mains and that suppressors and RF cores are good but in my opinion you cant justify $1539 for a mains lead even one that looks as good as that one.

This thread has covered a lot of ground. Do cables make a difference? I've heard it. Is the difference worth it? That would depend on your bank balance. How many times have you sold a customer a control system or display that has better build quality or physically more asthetic appearance when a cheaper system or display would turn on the system and play the DVD and show them a picture that is only a little worse? How about power conditioners or components that cost thousands more and 25% of the cost is the case? Cables aren't any different. You have speakers with sloped baffles to time align the drivers but still have perpendicular speakers that sound every bit as good. As far as price goes, if I applied my own values to my customers I couldn't sell(for example); Krell FPB, Classe, BAT, Levinson, Runco, Fujitsu, McIntosh etc. It took me a while to put aside my own values to sell a customer what they wanted and on some emotional level, needed. They have the money to get that last 2 or 5% of performance. As far as cables go, I think we just don't have the technology to measure what electrical and acoustic parameters affect sound in certain ways. When a speaker designer fine tunes a crossover or when a technician puts the finishing adjustments on a surround system speaker level adjustment it is done by ear. Thats why it is craft and art in addition to engineering. Some things are currently beyond our state of technology, you just have to open your eyes, ears and minds to realize it. Double blind testing is helpfull but not absolute. I and two colleagues went to Infinity to there Northridge facility to audition some of their speaker prior to production. In theit computerized double blind test we were able to determine not only which was which out of three speakers, but the brands and models as well. Go figure. That's my experience, opinion and 2 cents.

skip

This message was edited by Annie Nonymous on 11/21/03 09:50.

yeah...and????

Just have to share this story with you all. Back in college I attended a physics demonstration where among other things the professor did a frequency hearing test. He hooked an audio generator up to an smplifier speaker combination and incrementally increased the frequency. After each increment he asked for a show of hands of how many people could still hear the tone. Finally he cranked it up one more time and said "how many can still hear the tone" and about 10 people raised their hands, after which he said "I just turned the generator off". find those 10 in your customer base and sell them lots of cables.

This message was edited by Annie Nonymous on 11/21/03 09:53.

That's the point. If it really made a 2 to 5% difference it would absolutely be measurable. If there are any differences at all they have to be more in the .01 to .05% and even at that they should still be measureable. I agree that the ear is still the best analyzer but as a professional I believe you also can't completely ignore the science. It may not sound like it but I'm actually in the middle on this one. I have a very hard time ignoring things I've heard in hours of listenting tests over the years but at the same time I have had a couple of engineers SHOW me that it just ain't so. On the other hand the engineers have been wrong before. Explain this one to me though. directional speaker cable?

This message was edited by Ted Wetzel on 11/21/03 11:22.

directional speaker cable... higher profit margin :)

I believe directional cables (patch cords, I've not seen directional speaker wire) refer to which end the shield is grounded on. You should have all the shields grounded at the source. The little arrows are misleading though and seem to imply that sound goes in one end and out the other.

See...I was wondering about that too...

I have used wire in the past in ALL forms...coax, speaker, and interconnects, that have been directional. Now I completely understand direcetional interconnects, but bulk coax, and speaker cable?

Got two rolls of Signature SignaFlex (the "good" stuff) speaker wire in my garage with directional arrows on it...

When I got these rolls about three years ago (don't get paid to use it much) I asked the rep what the point of the directional arrows was...?

His reply was that it was the way they wove the copper strands together, and that the signal would simply flow better, with less resistance, in that direction...even I knew this was BS, but I had a side job customer that had read and heard about it and wanted it...so I got it for him!

avdude

When I see the directional arrows on bulk speaker cable I don't get it either. I don't buy into everything that's sold and say all high end cable is better, just that some is. You find out which ones work better in your system by substituting one for another until you get the best results. The cables in a high end system are just as much a component as the electronics. How many scientific discoveries were made by observation of a phenomena and then investigating the cause? Also, double blind testing is not an absolute gauge for comparison testing and experience and observation can be just as valid. According to the engineers, the throw away cables, as long as the connections are good, should sound or look as good as any other cable. Are any of you out there using those cable in your systems? When it comes to multiroom I'm not critical at all. I just use a quality cable unless there are better amps and speakers involved that can benefit from really good stuff. avdude, your right. Your engineer friend will, however, have more money left over and should be buying you beers if you have to listen to his science lesson.

This message was edited by Shoe on 11/21/03 13:47.

Shoe, avdude ASKED for the science lesson. I say he owes ME beer.