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The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:
| Topic: | Is it legal to run Zip Cord In wall ? This thread has 93 replies. Displaying posts 46 through 60. |
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| Post 46 made on Wednesday September 16, 2009 at 12:26 |
Ernie Bornn-Gilman Yes, That Ernie! |
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30,104 |
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On September 16, 2009 at 11:02, Kofi said...
And while you are up there, make sure all your fancy plenum and in ceiling speakers are properly secured by cable trays or other 'code compliant' support systems. You'll never understand just what those "support systems" are all about until you're at a site where several generations of data, phone, 25 pair wire...are all lying on a drop ceiling, you pull on a wire, and 500 pounds of wire, dust, and old ceiliing tiles just mush down to the floor.
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A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
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| Post 47 made on Wednesday September 16, 2009 at 14:53 |
Kofi Long Time Member |
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352 |
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My favorite memory of upgrading an old system in a drop ceiling included the dust, debris, and old wiring. But it went a step further and also included a conduit run through concrete slab floor. The conduit failed at some point and filled with water. I had to re-pull wire through a 100 plus feet of foul smelling slime. I used direct burial because I had no idea what code was for 'flooded conduit'.
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| OP | Post 48 made on Wednesday September 16, 2009 at 15:35 |
39 Cent Stamp Elite Member |
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On September 16, 2009 at 02:58, 2nd rick said...
39, I am more than a little shocked that this was lost on you....
This is CI level 101 stuff. It was the summer of 1993 when i was learning CI 101. Volume controls and in-wall IR receivers were considered cutting edge Distributed Audio and 16/2 lamp cord was what i was taught to use as the 'jumper' to the second speaker. When i left that job and started working where i am now, 16/4 & 14/4 ProFlex from A^A@ is what we used for speakers and then a few years later 14/4 Liberty. I have never had to spend a single moment thinking about or researching brown lamp cord as speaker cable and that's why it caught me off guard over at AVS and why i asked about it here. When i googled it i found a bunch of incomplete answers so i decided to post here... and got some more incomplete answers. Here we are on page 4 and if you dig thru all the posts you can come up with the complete answer. As i pointed out earlier in this thread.. when you are used to dealing with parts and products that work as they should you can get lazy. I have never had to setup an integra receiver because Denon and Marantz work. I have no idea how to install a C4 system because Crestron works. I had no idea that 'zip cord' could not be ran inside walls because real speaker cable has been on my truck since 1995.
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Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps |
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| Post 49 made on Wednesday September 16, 2009 at 20:36 |
smokinghot Super Member |
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On September 16, 2009 at 15:35, 39 Cent Stamp said...
i decided to post here... and got some more incomplete answers. Here we are on page 4 and if you dig thru all the posts you can come up with the complete answer. I'm amazed this got to a 2nd page let alone a 4th. If memory serves you asked if it was illegal to run "zip cord" in a wall, and if so why. The answer is: On September 15, 2009 at 13:36, smokinghot said...
Yes it's against code. The insulation is not rated for inwall use. Two direct questions, and two direct answers. What did I leave out that matters..?
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....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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| Post 50 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 02:06 |
davidcasemore Super Member |
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On September 15, 2009 at 21:44, CCD said...
Geez...there is so much misinformation posted in this thread that I feel like I am reading at AVS. Read NFPA 70 and take it to heart or be prepared to lose it all one day. Your insurance does not mean anything if you screw up. This is exactly why all states need to require low voltage licenses. You guys throw around terms like plenum CL2 CL3 riser like you actually know what it means. Almost every use that was stated in this thread was incomplete or incorrect.
To answer your question...NO it is not legal in 99% of the US to run lamp cord in walls. The places where it is legal do not have building codes or at least have not adopted NPFA 70. Can I wire my lamp with CL2? :-)
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Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time! |
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| OP | Post 51 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 02:13 |
39 Cent Stamp Elite Member |
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On September 15, 2009 at 14:25, Mr. Stanley said...
Zip cord is NOT CL-3 fire rated. It's jacket is flammable and produces toxins. On September 15, 2009 at 15:01, Ernie Bornn-Gilman said...
BINGO! THAT is the issue. So if i say..."You cant install lamp cord aka ZipCord in walls or ceilings because it is not CL-3 fire rated because its jacket is flammable and produces toxins."
Is that statement true and complete? ________________________________________________________
What about this statement...On September 15, 2009 at 12:33, Eastside A/V said...
To my knowledge, the issue is it is not coated in a fire retardent (CL2/CL3 rated) material, and as such if there were a fire, it would heat up almost instantly, and become essentially a fuse with a high heat melting plastic sheath...accellerating the progress of a fire to other parts of a house. This statement leads me to believe its also relivent...On September 15, 2009 at 13:54, Rob Grabon said...
NEC: "...and shall be listed as being resistant to the spread of fire." ________________________________________________________ And finally....On September 16, 2009 at 02:58, 2nd rick said...
Another factor required for in-wall rated wire is the over jacket.
Lamp cord does not have this, and is simply the insulated conductors siamesed together.
Any nick or abrasion occurring in the installation of the cable or the remaining construction process is less likely to cause a short circuit if there is an over jacket in addition to the insulation on the individual conductors.
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Also the terms "CL-2" and "CL-3" are short for Class 2 and Class 3, which are NEC definitions for low voltage circuits.
If memory is correct <50V is class 2, and 51V-100V is class 3. Those ranges may be off (I don't have the reference materials in hand as I write this), but basically they define two ranges which are less than electrical line voltage (120V). So does this mean that CL-3 In MR.Stanleys post would be CL-2 as long as i stayed below 50V? Is the overjacket issue addressed with my edited statement..."You cant install lamp cord aka ZipCord in walls or ceilings because it is not CL-2 fire rated because its jacket is flammable and produces toxins." ___________________________________________________________
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Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps |
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| Post 52 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 02:17 |
Bonavox Select Member |
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Yes we Can..........
..........put it in conduit.
This service announcement has been brought to you by the "liberal" media...
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Bill's Electric & Home Theater & Plumbing & Automation & Small Engine Repair, and Animal Removal Services......did I mention we do remotes also? |
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| Post 53 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 02:24 |
smokinghot Super Member |
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Well... actually.
Not everything can be put within conduit either. But that's for a different completely drawn out thread.
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....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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| Post 54 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 02:37 |
2nd rick Super Member |
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On September 17, 2009 at 02:13, 39 Cent Stamp said...
So does this mean that CL-3 In MR.Stanleys post would be CL-2 as long as i stayed below 50V? That does not even make sense. Depending on the voltage and current of the circuit, it would be a class 2 or class 3 circuit. If you use "CL-3" (class 3) cable, it is within spec for either application. The cable itself is not derated if the circuit is within the boundaries of class 2. Since you obviously too busy to research what should be basic knowledge to CIs, let me go out of my way to find it and present it to you. ======================== Class 2 circuits.Class 2 circuits typically include wiring for low-energy (100VA or less), low-voltage (under 30V) loads such as low-voltage lighting, thermostats, PLCs, security systems, and limited-energy voice, intercom, sound, and public address systems. You can also use them for twisted-pair or coaxial local area networks (LAN) [725.41(A)(4)]. Class 2 circuits protect against electrical fires by limiting the power to 100VA for circuits that operate at 30V or less, and 0.5VA for circuits between 30V and 150V. You protect against electric shock by limiting the current of the circuit to 5mA or less for circuits between 30V and 150V [Chapter 9, Table 11]. You can wire Class 2 circuits with Class 2 cable or any of its substitutes permitted by Table 725.61(A), depending on the condition of use. Class 3 circuits.Use Class 3 circuits when the power demand for circuits over 30V exceeds 0.5VA, but is not more than 100VA [Chapter 9, Table 11]. We often use Class 3 signaling circuits for security systems and public address systems; voice, intercom, and sound systems; and some nurse call systems. Higher levels of voltage and current are permitted for Class 3 circuits (in contrast to Class 2 circuits). To prevent an electric shock hazard, the wiring must be rated no less than 300V [725.71(E) and (F)]. Wiring methods that meet this requirement include PLTC Cable, Class 3 Cable, or any of its permitted substitutions listed in Table 725.61(A), depending on the condition of use. ======================== So here you see the full definition of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits, and the recommendations for cabling for these applications. (note that the handoff is at 30v, not 50v as I previously posted) Hope this clarifies things.
Last edited by 2nd rick on September 17, 2009 02:45.
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Rick Murphy
Troy, MI |
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| OP | Post 55 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 03:03 |
39 Cent Stamp Elite Member |
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On September 17, 2009 at 02:37, 2nd rick said...
That does not even make sense. Depending on the voltage and current of the circuit, it would be a class 2 or class 3 circuit. I know. Thats why i quoted it. 50 posts and no one has been able to completely finish this sentence. "You cant install lamp cord aka ZipCord in walls or ceilings because_____"
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Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps |
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| Post 56 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 03:15 |
smokinghot Super Member |
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How much detail are you fishing for Stamp...?
Stop beating around the bush and ask exactly you're looking for, because saying "the insulation isn't rated for the application" finishes your sentence quite well.
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....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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| Post 57 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 03:19 |
Indigo Select Member |
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On September 17, 2009 at 03:03, 39 Cent Stamp said...
I know. Thats why i quoted it. 50 posts and no one has been able to completely finish this sentence.
"You cant install lamp cord aka ZipCord in walls or ceilings because_Customer can find it cheap at any True-Value Hardware Store while you charge him $85.00/hr on top of 600% mark up____"
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| Post 58 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 03:21 |
smokinghot Super Member |
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600%...?
Does monoprice sell zip cord...?
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....Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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| OP | Post 59 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 03:28 |
39 Cent Stamp Elite Member |
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Not much detail.. just a complete sentence like...
"You cant install lamp cord aka ZipCord in walls or ceilings because its not CL-2 rated"
Or..
"You cant install lamp cord aka ZipCord in walls or ceilings because its not CL-3 rated"
Or..
"You cant install lamp cord aka ZipCord in walls or ceilings because its not CL-2 Or CL-3 rated"
And then maybe a why like...
"...because its jacket is not coated to prevent fire."
Or..
"...because its jacket is toxic when it burns."
Or..
"...because its jacket is not coated to prevent fire and because its jacket is toxic when it burns"
I looked thru every post in this thread and no one has answered the question completely. The closest i got was Mr.Stanleys statement where he says..
"Zip cord is NOT CL-3 fire rated. It's jacket is flammable and produces toxins."
Can we edit his statement like this and have it be the complete answer?
16/2 Zip cord is NOT CL-2/CL-3 fire rated. It's jacket is flammable and produces toxins.
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Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps |
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| OP | Post 60 made on Thursday September 17, 2009 at 03:32 |
39 Cent Stamp Elite Member |
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On September 17, 2009 at 03:21, smokinghot said...
600%...?
Does monoprice sell zip cord...? No.. and this whole thread got started because a guy at AVS couldnt get speaker cable from monoprice because they were out of stock.
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Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps |
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