Just an oservation, as we don't have AVAD in the great white north, but it appears to me that CEDIA is a willing participant in this game are they not? Otherwise, what's the x number of certified installers requirement thing all about? Sounds like they see this as a revenue opportunity just as AVAD. Some creative co-marketing stuff going on.

I can see CEDIA's angle where they're trying to help differentiate the CEDIA shops/installers from the non-CEDIA installers (electricans, security installers ...etc.). I think CEDIA's money grab has some value as it does create a higher skill set in the industry (or at least that should be the objective). CEDIA also makes more money if some of these trained installers start their own companies. It's a self perpetuating money machine once you get enough momentum.

The AVAD money grab is just that a money grab. I can't see how their marketing efforts should cost that much per dealer. Sounds like a well padded business case to me. You figure that AVAD supported dealers are going to stay with AVAD and that is how they would make most of their money and cover their costs.

Cheers

Just a question for everyone. How many jobs have you won or lost by being/not being CEDIA certified? In other words, what has the money you have spent with CEDIA done for you lately? I am not trying to CEDIA bash here but it seems to me that with CEDIA going to electrical trade shows to aquire new membership, partnering with AVAD on this D2B program and not raising mortal hell with ANY manufacturer that isnt willing to make certain that the true, trained professionals in this industry are the ONLY people that gain access to their particular product lines, then why belong to CEDIA? Over the last few months it seems to me that our industry is folding in on itself. I have noticed a trend, and maybe its just me
(sleep deprivation can cloud the mind), with manufacturers and distributors trying to market and sell their products on a larger scale even if it damages the people who have put them at the level that they are at today. I choose to beleive this is due to the economy and if these brands are to survive they must move in these directions. It is unfortunate that we (CI) get pissed on but hasnt it always been this way. I, as well as many of you I'm sure, remember sitting through training sessions many years back for DBS systems. Only to be sold and installed by professionals. Now my dry cleaner is also a sat. installer. Such is the way of the A/V guy. I have no solution and only offer my opinion but I do fear that the custom integrator will go the way of the dinosaur (or BETA if you prefer).

avgenius1,

Just for info, my CEDIA membership alone landed me an excellent job from its web site. There are several certified installers in my area and I am currently not certified but got the 80k job.

Therefore, I justify my dues.

Last year CEDIA membership netted us over $200,000.00 on website referral jobs... that paid for dues for oh....at least 100 years. This year we have won one small job from the site but enough pfofit to pay for another five years. I'm happy to be a CEDIA member and happy to be certified.

I feel that the certification will be watered down quite a bit with it available at AVAD. It meant more when you had to travel. The tests are not that hard (my State journeyman test was harder) so pretty soon, when every Tom, Dick & Harry is certified... including the COMPUSA delivery/hookup guys... it'll just be a buzzword.

This partnership is, as FRR says, a money grab. It will increase membership, which is of course CEDIA's main goal. I guess I watch all of the ancillary stuff that happens with this business and how many other people are getting creative and trying to find new ways to suck money out of it. Ultimately, our businesses are nothing but a portfolio of projects... our goals are only to acquire new projects and make each one that we manage as profitable and smooth as possible with the end result being a happy client who will refer us to others. What I'm finding is that things like this AVAD deal are simply a way to try and tap into these profits from our individual businesses, leaving us with less. Since we have to market to survive, and any of us who buy there definitely market... why muddy up the whole thing and try to get into the marketing game as well. I don't go into a neighborhood, buy up land and try to give those lots to my "favorite" builders... the ones who pay me and then tell them they have to use me to buy all of the lumber, etc. Maybe thats a bad analogy and boy wouldn't I love to be rich enough to do that... then I'd probably be here as a client instead!

Thanks for the replies. As I stated above, I am not trying to bash CEDIA. I just feel that CEDIA could take a more active (read: press releases) role in PROTECTING this industry, not recruiting electricians to compete with us for every job. I have a great love of this industry and dont wish to be replaced by some other trade that isnt as qualified. A certification is just that, it doesnt mean that you have any real experience. For example, a few years back I was doing electrical work so that I could gain a greater understanding of how home wiring actually worked. I did this for several years and actually am a journeyman. I was working on a project that was of some size for a church. I did most of the work for cost and minimum labor rates in my spare time to help out this church. I had a lot of conduit to pipe in and decided to hire a temp worker through a reputible staffing agency. I requested an apprentice electrician with some commercial background. What I got was indeed an apprentice electrician(at a rate of $15/hr.) that didnt have any hand tools, a working knowledge of basic principles of electricity, or any idea of how to bend pipe. When I called to complain to the temp agency they had me ask the guy to show me his apprentice card. When he did produce this card, I was informed that I got what i paid for- a CERTIFIED
apprentice electrician. Does that make any sense?
I am sorry for asking but I was in a car accident this morning and am not feeling well. I hope I actually got my original point across.

That's a point I was wondering why nobody was commenting on. Some of you may remember an article about Cedia in the early days. The VP was being interviewed and he made the comment that " if you go to a store and they don't have a cedia sticker on the door then turn around and leave because they aren't qualified to do the job." Considering I'd been doing this for ten years by then I was pretty annoyed and I saw CEDIA as an arogant, self serving organiztion, not a benefit to me. I've changed my tune some, but not much since then. The idea of AVAD being in such close cooperation with CEDIA and Bose certainly makes me wonder how much longer I'll be able to do business with them.

In the interest of fairness... I got an e-mail from the owner of my local AVAD who says that some of what I posted here is wrong. I should be seeing her in a few days and will stand corrected on any details that are amiss. I will post regarding the meeting and of course, I'm sure that all would welcome her posts as well. As always, opinions are like a--holes... and everyone elses stinks. This is based on what I have read and believe but it is just that... my opinion.

Regardless of what my opinion is... this is something that all of you professionals need to know about... more so than Wesley Mullings "standard". This is a new face of this business and IS going to create some waves. Her is the the site www.avadd2b.com but it doesn't give any details... just contact info. Please take the time to check it out so you can form your own opinions.

Rhm9...

Stick to your guns! If YOU are wrong, then quite a few other people here, who have investigated this for themselves, before ever reading your insightful tirades, are also wrong...

I got the same impression AFTER the two hour discussion with our local AVAD guy....

avdude

Oh... my guns are stuck!

And I won't be changing my opinion... I still feel it is a step out of bounds to use our money to compete against us... and I told them so.

I was just saying that if any details of my postings are awry then they can be corrected. I'm sure my distributor is pissed at me over posting this but I don't care. They feel that I am undermining their efforts but what abou the fact that they are undermining mine? It doesn't change the fact that I really like the people there... it just means that their distributor group is doing something I don't like... and I, like every other American citizen, have a right to voice my opinion about it. I aslo don't see how in the world so many dealers will see this as a good thing... I mean do you really feel that you will be ushered into some builder that will loyaly give you business? How does the lead get sent? etc, etc, ad infinitum.

I invited my AVAD distributor to add to these posts... please don't flame on her too much if she does because she is really a great person (and no, I don't feel I need to butter her up... I honestly feel that way) she may add something of value here and present the other side of the story.

I received an email from someone involved with my local AVAD regarding some of my opinion expressed in this post. As often happens with this type of communication, some of what I said was taken very differently than I had intended. I was simply going to delete the post but I think that would be a mistake. It is, afterall, a discussion forum and in all forms of discussion their will be some miscommunication.
What the email did do is to remind me that there are hard working people who have the best of intentions and motivations behind the scenes of these programs and organizations.

Here's how I see it: (WARNING!! Rant Alert!!)

Our industry is changing. Big money and business have seen the growth potential in our industry and are trying to manipulate the growth and direction that the industry takes. Some of these people are trying to protect the integrity and honesty that we as professionals prize so highly. Others are trying to manuever themselves within the industry to make sure they are in line to reap the rewards of our hard work. No matter how you look at it, big business and organizations are going to try to take over our jobs. The influence of these companies and industries will be felt by everyone. Big companies will push thier own "standards" and "certifications" on the market through large dollar advertising, and either force us to join or be out of the loop. Sort of like Bose trying to tell everyone that thier way is the only way. These people will market builders, architects, and the general public. We can't compete with the dollars they will spend in advertising. We can't lobby the politicians with the same clout that they can. We can't even go to CEDIA with the same clout. We have to get used to the fact that big business sees the home electronics market as a big cash cow. We are going to get a lot of new competition in the next few years. Some of it good, some of it bad. Some will be big unions and nationwide companies, some will be trunk-slammers looking for a quick buck. We, as the professionals who grew this industry into what it is, need to compete the way we always have. We need to educate our builders on why they should choose us over the the big guys. We need to build those relationships with the architects who design houses.(Questions: How many of you regularly consult with your local architects on home theater jobs? How many of you think that 20 minutes of your time every week with an architect will get you more business?) We need to keep quality high and emphasise our strengths. If we play on our ablity to be faster, smarter, and better, those people won't go anywhere else. If they do, they will come back.

Something similiar happend a few years back in the car audio market. The big guys realized there was a lot of money to be made and opened shops all over the place. The local guys who had been there for years either adapted of went away. The small guys found that the custom side was something that the big guys could never compete against. They found that by being more knowledgable and better at what they did, they not only didn't lose business, but grew. The big guys created top of mind awareness and the small guys capitalized when people wanted it done right. The moral of that story was that the big guys want to be us. They want to be able to charge for design. They want to thave one-on-one relationships with clients. They want to be able to do high-end work. They want to be the one-stop for everything a customer needs. But they can't. The bottom line drives eveything they do and the pursuit of more profits means lower standards. They have to hire low wage employees, turn-over is high, and training is expensive. What does this have to do with this? The best way for them to compete is to go above us. They go to the manufacturers and get "dedicated" product lines. They lobby the industry for standards and certifications only they can afford, but are lower than our day-to-day standards. They market to our builders by saying "we're bigger, we have to be better". Our distributers and reps are feeling the pressure(question: How many times have you been back-ordered on a product only to find it in a big "chain store"?). Our industry is changing. Big money and big business are trying to change our industry.

Jason

(sorry, I ramble)

I have not run into a single customer yet who has mentioned Cedia in any fashion; most do not even know what Cedia is. Big business is already here and we are just starting to get caught in the undertow.

I have been deliberately doing everything I can to get away from distributors like avad and go direct for the very reasons mentioned in this forum. The whole system is getting very good old boy club. A lot of unnecessary laws and over regulation are being forced into existence by electrical unions and big electronics lobbyists, which puts a greater burden upon us little guys.

I do not know how this is all going to turn out, but I feel it won’t be pretty in the end.

Ted... well put... I left the faces of the people out of my vision while ranting. Some of what I write is cynical attempts at humor but can be taken as a mad boiling individual ready to explode... I'm actually kind of mellow. Anyway, my rep is hurt by what I said and here is what my day looks like.

Meeting with her to apologize for any remarks that were too harsh but still standing my ground. After that meeting I go to Bose training for four hours. Thankfully I will be out starting a new project with a great client after that. I've never smoked in my life but today would be an excuse for a cigarette. Wish me luck.

It should be obvious that a lot of us are concerned about these trends and this is our place to vent and commiserate. The place is not private though, and it should also be obvious that what we say will get back to us and may hurt others if not carefully worded. There are a few details that are off from what i originally posted and a lot is my opinion but I can see that my opinion is shared by many of you. My intent was to share with all of you that this 800 pound gorilla is coming to your living room and give you forewarning so you will take the time to contact your builders and keep them loyal to you before you get blindsided... it was not to hurt individuals who I do respect and care about.

I have been in& out of this business for 10 years in one form or another. I buy some from AVAD, but to be honest they are more expensive than EVERY OTHER source for the same gear? Wire supplies has my wire needs, along with Liberty. It is great to have them for some of the filler or last minute product but thats about it. In the commercial communications industry this would never happen, would it? Would ANIXTER do that to there client base?

My take on this is just stop buying from them if you dont agree with the politics involved,they are just trying to make more money themselves, cant fault em for that.

AVAD approaching builders is nothing more than trying to get the builder/contractor to be his own AV company in his own projects. After all he is the one paying for it most of the time anyway, this will just cut us out and expose the products and technology directly to the final decision maker.

Who knows, maybe someday AVAD/Allnet will have installers themselves to work with "Builder Partners" to plan and install everything they need!

As I sat through the AVAD sales pitch for this D2B program, I immediatley sensed that it was just more of the AVAD "get the money" mentality.

My opinion of AVAD is just the same as the opinion I held of the rep firms that stated AVD. They suck! Bunch of self serving assholes.

Prior to AVAD, my local rep firm that is now a AVAD member firm, refused to sell me the SharpVision line. Fortunately, Sharp electronics sold the line to me direct. Real fine job of representing a product line, eh?

Just last year I was invited to purchase the Infocus 7200 by the local AVAD guys. Was told that I had to purchase one for show, and one for go, and that this was a Infocus requirement. Needless to say, that was BS, as I bought the unit elsewhere. Not only bought it elsewhere without some BS "one for show, one for go", but bought it for less.

D2B? Take this money grab and shove it!