I had a large response earlier and my T1 line was acting up and evidentaly, didnt get posted... grrrr...


I will Try to remeber most of it...

Mr johnson..... You comments about Prontos and RTI's doing as much as a Crestron really made me chuckle....

Lets start with Intellicontrol.....

Poor to Mediocore RF Range, Poorly labled buttons for todays home theater gear... Tivo... Escient Fireball... even HD Satellite become maor issues.... As for controlling a multi-display system... good luck..... I did a bunch of those when they first came out.... and they worked ok... Several have been upgraded to AMX and Crestron systems since the introduction of TIVO.... Something you will NEVER have to worry about with a Crestron or AMX Touchpanel... Need a new button... Draw it.... Done.... ANd what good is power sense on your AudioRequest if you cant control it with your $2k Button based remote?????

RTI T2......

Heres a good one... RS-232! yeah right.... RS-232 transmission without Feedback is kinda like... Well, its exactly like IR..... Except for the couple devices out there that have RS232 Discrete selection but no IR... Its useless.... Faroudja NRS's come to mind as a prety good aplication... But thtas because Faroudja IR Sucks... Power Sense modules work on an inconsistant basis......

Again... Poor to mediocore RF Range, At least the touchscreen allows a small amount of future flexibility.

Prontos.... RS-232.. Nope... Fits Comfortably in a hand... Not in my experience..... Greyscales screens are icky... Power State sensing.. Yeah Right.... Color Pro/9200 are the next best thing to a Crestron or AMX if budget relly doenst allow....

MX700/800 Power Sensing???? Nope. RS-232? Nope.... But overall a good design on the the 700... MX-800.....Why HTM thought it was a good idea to come up with their own IR jacks I'll never figure out..... I have enough time keeping track on one brand of emmitters in my warehouse... Now I've got to have more stupid little leads and emmitters of ONE out of the 10 remotes that I do??????? I dont think so...


-Sigh-

I know you've been around the industry a long time Eric.... I find it hard to believe that you've never seen a proporly designed and installed Creston or AMX system... (Well, I guess you said that 1% of the systems you've seen were good.....

Going back to the Car analogy.... Lets talk 50k-ish Cars....
Whens the last time you saw a BMW 540 or a Mercedes E 320 WITHOUT a sunroof on a dealers lot? You Dont..... because the dealer decided that those cars NEED a sunroof..... Sure, you can order one without it.. Maybe even find one on a lot occationally, but for the most part... Your getin one... And ya know what... Once ya have it... You like it.. Love it even.....

I actually said:

"There is nothing that a Crestron or AMX system can do in terms of bulletproof control of A/V gear, that a Niles Intellicontrol, an RTI TheaterTouch, or a Pronto/MX800 or similar macro capable remote combined with a Xantech Gatekeeper (or a Niles IntelliControl MSU) can't do.

All these combinations provide the installer with simple ways to program an IF/Else statement..."

I'll stand by that. But not your interpretation of it. I specifically talked about bulletproof control of A/V gear and further clarified in a later post:

"I mentioned IF/Else statements and power sensing apparatus which REALLY does make Prontos, IntelliControls, RTI, Xantech and Home Theater Master remote controls as reliable as Crestron/AMX when controlling standard IR A/V components."

I most definitely did say that AMX and Crestron systems CAN DO much more than that, but in most installations are not programmed to do more.

You criticize the IntelliControl, but ignore the fact that savvy installers use the MSU only, and often couple it with a Pronto or Ipronto. That way the macros reside in the MSU, the touch screen only issues single Niles "trigger" RF commands to the IntelliControl MSU. And prontos can be relabled just as quickly as an automation system touch screen.

You criticize the RTI T2 for range and the fact that it only sends RS232 commands. OK, but it is much cheaper than Crestron, AMX or Niles and it DOES send RS232 without any additional boxes! I think that's pretty cool!

You criticize the Pronto for lacking power sensing, ignoring the fact that many installers routinely install it with a Xantech Gatekeeper or a Niles IntelliControl that does provide power sensing.

As for the 2.5mm jacks on the HTM MRF-200, I agree. You make a good point. It is a shame the mistake wasn't corrected.

You complain that I don't see very many good Touch Screen designs. Well I do see some fantastic ones. If you are putting your TIVO guides and menus on your customers touch screens, I'd like to see yours. I am teaching a new class at CEDIA EXPO this year on User Interface Design and Specification. If you've got some cool stuff to share with your peers, I'd like to talk to you. Give me a call.

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

Any way ya slice the sentence, None of your combinations offer anything that resembles 2-Way RS-232 Communication, and none of the listed Remotes have anywhere near the RF range of a Crestron or AMX.


Oh My.... If your advocating putting Iprontos into Unsuspecting end user homes I think I'll stop now.... To anyone who doesnt know what I mean, just go take a scn through the Ipronto Forum....



Um.. It ONLY does one-way Rs-232 with the addition of the IRF-6, AND a RTI Supplied Cable adaptor(Which is a Box on a wire). Thats 2 additional boxes past the wand. I thinks its prety cool too.... Its helped out in a few situations.... Unfortunatly, Pretty cool, and Functional arent one and the same.




I've been to a lot of "Please make my system work" calls in the past 10+ years..... I think I've seen ONE system that had a gatekeeper in it....... I dunno... Maye the systems with the gatekeepers work great and thats why I havent seen em.....


Hey Hey! At least we agree on SOMETHING


I'm not quite sure what your expecting here Eric.... Do you want the Touchscreen to Emulate the Tivo's On screen display??? That seems unreasonable...... The Tivo is designed around the TV... The TV Provides the bulk of the Users interaction. There are no Tivo Units in production that provide any sort or RS-232 feedback so I can built and interactive touchscreen.

Now, I've programmed MP3 Servers to do what your asking. I've done Video Panels with Direct X/Y input into an Escient Fireball, and I've done my own interactive Touchpanels on non-Video panels and Browsers(Java Based E-Control..... I feel they work great since I have plenty of information to work with from the Escient box. A Tivo gives a programmer no way to do what I Think your suggesting....




Basically, what I'm saying is this......

Just because something CAN be done doesnt mean is Should be done. By the time you add all of your Black boxes, mix 2 or 3 different systems togethers, and get it programmed, How much time and $$ is invested it? Gate Keeper is not cheap.... especially if you need to keep an eye on a large system.

Now that I've said all of that, heres the kicker......

Many people purchase AMX's from me based Solely on the Screen. It really IS important to people. If it wasn't, do you really think Marantz could charge double the price of a 5200 for the 9200?

Impaqt,

I agree with all that you say about the superiority of Crestron/AMX capabilities. I agree with what QQQ has said about large touch screens giving the customer an easier time understanding operation. However, the less expensive, less capable systems have their place.

An RTI T2 system, a Niles Intellicontrol MSU or a Xantech Gatekeeper combined with a Pronto/Marantz/Yamaha/ Onkyo/HTM/Xantech remote control can be installed and programmed for between $1500 and $2000, making them perfectly appropriate for systems without RS232 components or the need for RF range beyond one room.

They are not more desirable than Crestron/AMX.

However, you can't install and program an AMX/Crestron system for anything close to this. They are better, but they are more expensive.

When a client wishes to steer the budget to higher performance in sound or video, they are an acceptable compromise, since they still give bulletproof control of standard IR controlled A/V components and the remote control can be customized to give an understandable interface and updated when new components are installed.

I am interested in touch screen interfaces for Escient, or any other challenging install you've done for the interface class.

I haven't seen a touch screen interface yet for a Tivo, but I know several programmers who are toying with it or with Sat receiver control, trying to create an EPG on the touch screen(like the TV Guide website) that can be touched by the client to access a new program. So far, the best interfaces I've seen still require that the client touch an icon for the channel, rather than directly touching the program listing they want to watch or record.

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

Eric:

I'm persistent and want to see if I can get an answer to my question.

My name is Mr. Billionaire. I am building a HT addition onto the homes of 10 of my children as a Christmas gift. I will give you a budget of 50K each for the ten systems. The room is 25' long x 19' W and is completely light controlled. You can mount the projector anywhere you need to in the room and we have built columns to house the speakers and a special room to house the equipment. Every detail has been planned for by our theater designer. I'm leaving it up to you to select the electronic equipment.

What control system/remote will you install for my children?

QQQ,

I think your question would be easier if the budget were a little larger, say $75 to $100K. But, like you, my preference for such a prestigious opportunity would be an advanced automated touchscreen system that has 2-way wireless capability, power sensing, RS232 TX/RX, ethernet connections etc. as long as it is programmed with a robust programming language that my staff programmer knows in and out.

But, I wouldn't hesitate to change to a lesser control system should the clients desires dictate it...

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

QQQ,
Question for ya.
Let's say you are knee deep in a sytem that has progrssively grown to the scale of the one first mentioned. And the only reason it's as much as it is, is because you've squeezed every dime possible for system performance. The client understands there may be some hickups, and those hickups can be avoided for an extra 3k, and says no to that. What would you do. Back out of the project, pay for the control system yourself, or adapt, and provide the best solution based on all the above? You have 2200.00 incl. programing.
Put the shoe on your foot......:)
CMack

Cmack... I'm wondering if your the Salesman, Instaler, or both?

Basically, you should never be in the situation your describing....... I certainly wouldnt back myself into that corner, but if a system evolves, then the control system should too.

I dont know any other way to say this, so at risk of sounding like a jerk....

It sounds to me like the salesman on this job has done a poor job.

You cant let yourself get caught up in "upgrades" to electronics, and not think about the consequences Control Wise......

If you are the salesman, you've obviously done a good job selling hime on electronics that may or may not be an actual improvement over the original system. There is no way for the client to Hear something that was never installed in their room.... However, there certainly IS a viable improvement in Control. There isnt a person on the planet that cant see that a AMX Viewpoint(Or Crestron ST1700C) is vastly superior to a Pronto, RTI, Intellicontrol, etc etc etc.....

***Added***

I should add that It is very hard for someone who is not experienced with Crestron or AMX to sell it. Its quite evident that you have not installed one of these systems in the past, and probobly havent been though any training on either. So its probobly not your fault entierly that this client was sold the wrong gear... (ANd that goes whether you use the Pronto or end up upgradeing.... this post was originaly posted because you sold three satellite receivers, and had no idea how to control them independantly)

Education is Critical to making sure these types of systems get designed and installed correctly.







This message was edited by Impaqt on 07/31/03 21:54.

Hate to pile on but he's right. You are the expert.The customer trusts you to guide him properly. When the job starts to grow, you have got to be thinking about control systems. I find it hard to believe that the customer w/ walk away from a 50k system for the lack of an additional 3k. As a sales and design professional you should have led him here earlier on. Its my philosophy that isf a customer cant Easily use all of his product within a few minutes of training him, i've done something wrong.
As for eric wanting to use a pronto to control it all.

just...........no.

Gentleman,
I have done many multi-screen installations and believe it or not I use Pronto's and xantech IR router. Works perfectly. As long as you're using equipment with discrete codes not an issue. Have a room with a 50" and 2 42" NEC's on the same wall. The two 42's are hard wired ir and the 50 is not. Works pefectly. Three DTC-100 HD Sat recievers, etc.

www.hvhomemedia.com

cmack:

Good question which I did my best to answer. Unfortunately, as usual Remote Central won't allow me to post a long message and I don't feel like spending 15 mintes breaking it up into smaller posts so I'm giving up for now. Sorry.

QQQ... If your going to Cedia, I'd love to buy ya a Beer and a Lapdance........

Eric... I'd love to buy you a beverage as well... (dunno bout the lapdance though...)

Imapqt,
Yea I wear all the hats. Salesman, grunt, installer, accountant, the guy who gets the credit and the boot.
And yes it's my first multi display system. Frankly I don't see why this thread has gone on this long. Nor do I think the control of this system will be that great of a challenge.
Seems others have the same view with far more experience than I. Guess theres more than one way to skin a cat.
Regardless, I do appreciate your input. (or is that output:)
BTW when the concept of 3 displays was first brought to my attention I simply thought no problem, I'll use 3 different manufacturers for the receivers and have a single page that displays channel up and down and maybe a couple favorite buttons for each. Then have a jump button that will take the client to a screen that gives them complete control of each individual receiver. No problem with IR codes because they are different manufacturers. Knowing I can use the Key Digital Piece and will avoid having to switch inputs and the DVDO to up convert a 480i signal for the VHS. It wasn't until much later that it occured to me that it would just suck to have different guides and would cause everyone to learn the OS of each receiver. Once realized, I have to make it possible to control with the budget. And yes, I explained that a more advance control system may be necessary pending his needs and the pros and cons. For them the pros did not outway the cons of a Crestron or Equivelant. A brief explanation was given on the pros and cons, and when he heard the price difference he said we'll just check the gear if we need to.
I've laid the foundation if an upgrade is needed. I just don't think it will be.....
CMack

Young Grashopper:

You still have much too learn.

Your client that is buying a projector and two plasma TV's does not have a "budget" that is preventing him from buying a control system. The value of a control system has not been established in his mind, and therefore he does not have the "budget" for it.

cmack, on another issue, may I ask if you are you in a wealthy geographic area? Are there opportunities to sell many systems like this in the future? Or is this a small city where these types of sales are few and far between?

This message was edited by QQQ on 08/01/03 10:01.

LOL....
I would have to say these type systems are in abundance. Or at least the dollar amount.
CMack