The next time I design a system I will explain to them that I can either sell them a system that will make operating the system an effortless joy, or a handheld remote that they can operate the on-screen guides from without looking at it, but may never be able to operate the system to get to the onscreen guide.

This message was edited by QQQ on 07/30/03 15:55.

Less satisfying for WHO! Imaginary customers in fantasy land? I have sat down with customer after customer after customer to show them their Crestron systems. They have one UNIVERSAL reaction. JOY. I have had men that almost fall over in shock as their wife that has always complained about their A/V purchases exclaims that she loves the system (because for the first time she can operate it). I have never gotten that from any other remote, not even a perfectly programmed MX-700 or Pronto. Satisfied, perhaps even happy yes, but otherwise we are talking two different experiences altogether.

This message was edited by QQQ on 07/30/03 15:56.

That’s what a properly programmed Crestron system does. It makes people HAPPY.

You’ve convinced me. I’m going to stop selling these unwieldy things. I’m going to start selling all my clients MX-700’s. BOSE too.

So I can’t make a rule that I won’t sell a mono VCR with a HT system? What if I make a rule that I include an MX-700 as a minimum with all HT systems? Is that an acceptable rule (I’ll bet you don’t have a problem agreeing with that one). Of course it’s all relative. Each person/company has to decide what they consider a compromise and which compromises they are willing to make.

This message was edited by QQQ on 07/30/03 16:09.

Hey QQQ, Calm down. If I were to take apart your sentence's like that and assign all kinds of nasty motives to each word, we'd both be here all day.

I'd like a chance to respond to a few of your comments though.

I have said, IN THE CONTEXT of a long conversation, that suing clients over contracts is a poor business proposition, and that concentrating on making them happy is smarter. I'll stand by that. But I dislike the fact that you quote me out of that context.

I sincerely complimented Crestron and AMX when I said that they are "impressive, easy to use and profitable." I teach CEDIA classes in management and consult for many dealers and manufacturers. My reason for employment is my ability and experience in bettering profitability. There was no sly underhanded attempt at insult and I resent your implication.

As to your parting shots on rules. Well, I can imagine a high end system with a mono vcr for a client with nothing but mono classic movie tapes. Your suggestion that I think MX-700's should be in every system is also completely misguided. I've designed products for dozens of companies BESIDES Home Theater Master for a number of different market segments. I agree with you that "each person/company has to decide what they consider a compromise and which compromises they are willing to make."

And I stand by my other comments. I don't believe you really noticed the fact that I mentioned IF/Else statements and power sensing apparatus which REALLY does make Prontos, IntelliControls, RTI, Xantech and Home Theater Master remote controls as reliable as Crestron/AMX when controlling standard IR A/V components.

The true power and value of expensive touch screen automation systems is really apparent to a client when the installer has the imagination, talent and budget to PUT THOSE ONSCREEN MENUS ON THE TOUCH SCREEN and take them OFF THE TV SCREEN. Then all THREE of the disadvantages YOU CITED of AMX/Crestron systems disappear.

Sorry about the SHOUTING. You got my dander up.

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

I didn't assign any nasty motives to you other than being wrong -:).

BTW, I don't disagree that using power sensors etc. with a remote like the MX-800 can make system operation as reliable as a Crestron/AMX system (at least for practical purposes). But reliable does not = as easy to operate.

But let me ask you a simple question. You have a client that comes to you and asks you to design 10 50K HT systems, one for him and one as a gift for each of his nine grown children and he wants it to be a surprise. You can provide one remote and/or control system for each system. What remote control system would you provide?

p.s. If you want to go back to the contract thread, I think I only took a little bit of liberty with the context :-).

This message was edited by QQQ on 07/30/03 19:16.

I visit this forum for solutions and hopefully I can offer some experience of my own that can help someone out. My experience is far less than others but my ethics and beliefs are superior to most.
A few responses have indicated that if things are not done just so you will have an unhappy client. The only possible negative outcome of any shortcoming of my system design is that I'll eat up my profits making the client happy. If indeed the only thing that will work in this application is a Crestron or equivelant then that is how the system will end up. If a screw up, I pay, not the client.
I was at a clients home yesturday discussing phase 3 of there system (master bedroom). During our meeting the designer mentioned a competitor who she normally woeks with and how she has been very dissatisfied with lately. My client immediatly stepped into the conversation and explained how she has been overly satisfied by our ability to design a system that works for them based on their needs within the budget.
The key is within their NEEDS. Some people need voice recognition to operate a garage door opener, others don't.
System control is a must. The amount of control is relevant to the client. Some like the cool factor, others just want their needs met at a minimal expense.
CMack

This thread has been intresting, and i would like to put my two cents in. Any of the control systems mentioned here if programed right will work to any customers advantage. It is our job as installers to make a customers system work, and work right, whether its Crestron, Niles, Pronto, or HTM. I think when designing a system the control is very important, but once control is established the equipment can be "massaged" to meet the needs of "TOAD" commands, if any are present. If you have done this a couple of times you start to get an idea what components will seamlessly work with your chosen control device. Lastly I agree with cmack, each customer is different and will require a different degree of control, thats what makes us the experts, because we meet each individual custmomer needs on a case to case basis.

QQQ,

I would extensively interview the client and encourage him to change his mind. Surprise systems cannot be custom configured for each child's ultimate satisfaction. In all likelihood, none of the ten would be happy with the same system. However, I would be quick to point out the advantages of having a recognizable interface if they all switched residences periodically.

Certainly with a $50,000 budget I would most likely center discussions of control systems around the most potent and the easiest for anyone to operate without instruction. Should I meet unusually large rooms and throw distances (that might require very expensive projectors), my control budget might have to suffer for one of the children. Likewise, if one of the kid's came with a library of 30,000 CD's, the programming budget might catastrophically decimate the performance budget (in 1992, I installed a $45K system with $5k in audio and video, the rest was AMX and programming).

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

Broken into two posts again:

CMack:

This is a fun discussion and I don't disagree much with anything you said in your last post. I think the question where some of us differ slightly is in evaluating the customers needs. None of us can really speak about your customer since we don’t know them. BUT, the more accurate thing that we can debate, is how difficult/easy should an expensive HT system be to operate?

The analogy that I would use is car safety. If I buy a $12,000 car, I don’t necessarily expect to have front and side air bags, traction control etc. On the other hand, if I spend 75K on a car, I damn well expect I should be getting front and side air bags etc. And if I was a car salesman and it was an option, do I really want to be selling a 75K car without side airbags, even if the customer doesn't think they need them? In that instance, aren't I looking out for the customer by bending their arm a little?

I think that's part of our job as professionals, to bend our customers arm a little when it's ONLY in their best interest.

Using the car analogy, I ask the same question about a 50K home theater system. Do I really want to sell a 50K home theater system that is anything less than an absolute joy to operate? That is anything less than so intuitive that anyone that can read can operate it.

And if I am selling a 50K system, isn’t something bizarrely wrong if I have to try to guage how tech savvy my customer is to decide what to sell them? Should I really be doing that on a 50K system???

By the way, here is an example of a customer that wasn’t sold a control system with their HT:
[Link: burzurq.com]

OK Impaqt, it's your turn now. Back me up. Let those guns start blazing -:).

QQQ,

Using your car analogy, surely anyone selling classic cars without a shred of safety would go out of businesss. There are clients who don't want their arms bent, they want a classic Ferrari.

Likewise, in custom installation, some clients balk at expensive control systems yet lust for fantastic speakers etc. There is a place for under $2k controls in some $50K systems, likewise there is a place for over $45K control systems in some $50k systems too.

Please the client and garner referrals...

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

First, I'm not saying that there should NEVER be an occasion that somone sells a MX-700 (to use an example) in a 50K system. I AM saying that it should be exceedingly rare, based upon my experience with most end users.

But in a way, you are making my point. Because for me you could revers the prices - it's COMPLETELY irrelevant whether the MX-700 sells for $5000 and the Crestron sells for $500. I would STILL sell the Crestron because that's will provide my client with a solution that will gurantee 100% satisfaction.

Seems Crestron is listening about price points. More control processors and touch panels to hit certain price points.


Dave