From time to time I have faceless phone callers asking to buy "protected" items for the purpose of dumping. They always point out how stupid I am for not going along with their little scheme.

I don't know any particulars about the Pronto situation, but the manufacturers must have strong hints about which dealers are doing this. It would be strange if dealer 'A' suddenly started "selling" hundreds of units a month after selling a few units a year. From the manufacturer's perspective, this is an easy way to sell product by reaching a group of users who will not purchase anything that is  perceived as being purchased at "regular" prices. Some users are satisfied at a few percent discount, while others insist on 50%. I have always suspected certain manufacturers of turning a blind eye to the situation in an effort to move more product.

This practice can be a spiral of death for the manufacturer because these off the grid discount operators only go for the easy sales and 50% discount for a popular product is an easy sale. Since the regular dealers are not perpetually stupid, they will eventually drop such products, but the manufacturers don't care that much because lots of product is being sold -- probably more product than the regular dealer network can sell. Eventually, however, without the regular dealers to undercut, the discount sales stop being so easy and the discounters will drop the brand for an easier sale. This can happen suddenly, the brand is out of the market, and the manufacturer must rebuild the brand -- almost from scratch. This is very expensive. Unfortunately, the management team that engineered the original scheme has probably moved on to victimize another company, citing their excellent results with the former company as a salary negotiation point.

While none of this is necessarily illegal or immoral, afterall the free market promises to provide the lowest possible price for the customer, it can be a high stakes, risky game. Although they don't usually think in these terms, the customer has a stake in this drama too. If the low price, back door sales game is played too strongly, the original manufacturer may be forced from the market and the after the sale support will disappear too. For durable products, lack of support could be an issue.

Anyway, consumer, dealer, distrubutor, and manufacturer will do what they think is in their own long and short term best interest and the chips fall where they fall. That's the way of the free market.

I fail to see what Philips could possibly gain from locking out DIY users and preventing them (us) from gaining access to software updates and modules.

- None of the DIY users would have bought the Pronto if they had to rely on professional installers to configure it. The immense configurability and tweakability of the Pronto is what appeals to the DIY users, not a locked down device handed to them by an installer, who probably is less technically inclined than the DIY user himself and who only wants to be on his way to the next customer as soon as possible. In other words, Philips still does not have a sale on the installation, but do sell one or more Pronto units - no loss, but rather a "win" situation for Philips.

- The DIY user might provide added value to the product, by for example writing his own ProntoScript modules and giving them away for free or for a fee, both which would benefit Philips, their distributors and their installers. The more equipment that is supported by the Pronto, the easier the sale. If a DIY user does not develop anything, it is still no loss for Philips nor for the installers - they have sold a unit and have another "win" situation.

- The targeted customer base is not affected by the existence of DIY users in any negative way that I can think of. One additional DIY user does not equal one customer less for the professional installers. It doesn't work that way.

Thus, my point of view is that Philips should *encourage* development and aid DIY users by providing the PEP software, updates, modules and documentation to everyone for free. They gain absolutely nothing from doing the opposite.

Distributor A complaining that distributor B is selling Prontos cheaper and undermining the market is a completely different issue that has nothing to do with the DIY user and his/her access to the Pronto web site. Distributor A will not sell any more Pronto installations because the web site access has been revoked. On the contrary, fewer Prontos will ultimately be sold totally and fewer modules will be developed, which in the long run will hurt distributor A as well as distributor B.

The distributors who want the "unauthorized" users locked out have sadly had their vision clouded by their own greed, and don't see (or care about) the bigger picture. Of course any distributor wants high market prices and monopoly and complain when their product becomes available more cheaply elsewhere. That doesn't mean they should have it their way. Ruining it for others isn't the answer.

Another bad thing is that while I've purchased all my pronto equipment with an authorised dealer that bought from the correct distributor I still am locked out off level 3 exams and now probably the professional section. I can't understand why an installer needs to be a dealer aswell. People go out and buy their equipment in a store. That store is a Pronto dealer but most can only create poor Pronto one way configurations with even poorer interfaces. That's why they hire someone to program the Pronto's, EIB and other touchpanels/phones.

Maybe Philips should walk into some stores and watch the demo Pronto's in the stores. They might actually see that a seperate programmer would do much better, which in return will get the store to sell more Pronto's.

Besides that going the AMX/Crestron route is not smart, the major thing going for Pronto is the public availability of the software. If it's not, why not move over to Crestron/AMX which have much more modules available and proven controllers. This way they leave the door open for Apple, Google and Microsoft (or HTC, Samsung on Android/Windows Phone 7+) to come up with a slighty modified cell phone or pad with hard buttons + controller and an open format. Or maybe even Logitech. Why not look at the succes of Android + IOS with their market (like Microsoft has) and come up with a market where users/installers can buy and sell modules/libraries and themes? They could even strike up a precentage.

I've tried explaining this to prontoteam members over and over again, but they seem to have another vision. Never the less, I'm sure they will find a solution for DIY and even if they won't I will keep providing libraries and modules as long as I use Pronto's myselve. Because let's not forget it still is the best looking remote out there.

Since we expect that Philips is reading this forum I wish to add my two cents (well maybe ten cents since this post is a little long :-).

Firstly, I bought my hardware (remotes and extenders) legitimately through B&H photo, a company I trust. I don't consider it to be my responsibility to investigate Philips' distribution channels. I'm confident that my equipment wasn't stolen or is some kind of illegal reproduction. I bought the hardware in "good faith".

I didn't choose this line of equipment simply based on the hardware capabilities. Most of us "DIYers" have chosen this line of remotes basically as a hobby (whether we realized it or not). Some of the factors that went into that decision were the ability to try the editing software before the purchase, the open availability of software and firmware upgrades, the availability of coding examples, and perhaps most importantly the community here on Remote Central. I never saw anything to discourage an end user from buying or programming their own remote, and I felt that the hardware and my "hobby" had a good future. However, I feel that what Philips has done suddenly changes many of the factors that influenced my purchase decision and the future of my "hobby". I do expect hardware to eventually become obsolete, but this is a different situation, they haven't discontinued my TSU9600. I have a lot of time and money invested in this (especially time) and when people start to feel that their time may have been wasted they tend to get very upset, very fast. I realize that there is no obligation for Philips to provide me with anything more than what was in the box, but I can't help but feel that they are being big meanies here and I don't feel that is a good way to treat your customers.

I would also question Philips' move to a more closed model. It clearly seems to be attractive to certain Remote Central users who believe they stand to gain from this (and I understand their point of view), but if your business model requires a hardware manufacturer to protect you with proprietary/closed software and hardware distribution you certainly aren't moving in the direction of the future. Even Apple's iPhone has already been surpassed by sales of Android based phones specifically because the Android system is far more open.

Fortunately, Philips has the opportunity to make me happy again. I have been a professional programmer for at least 15 years. I have no need to be "certified" by Philips as an installer or any other title. I have never expected to have "high" level support from Philips, meaning that I don't expect them to answer my calls or emails regarding programming the remote, I'm happy to get that sort of support from these forums (or as I usually do: work it out for myself). I just want access to the latest firmware, and I don't see any reason not to provide access to the samples as well. Why require any passing of tests etc. if I'm on my own as far as the programming is concerned? The installers can get higher level support if Philips wants to provide that. Providing me with this basic level of access won't hurt any official installers etc. since I have never had any intention of paying someone else to program the hardware (it's kind of a hobby remember), and I wouldn't ever pay someone to program it in the future. This is a support model that seems to work for many other companies and I don't see why it can't work for these products as well.

My opinion of the Philips brand is what's at stake here. I hope Philips makes changes that allow me to continue to recommend their brand to others, as I have done in the past.

The MSRP is from a test done by a Norwegian website (dingz.no). I thought the price quoted was 12990 nok, but found the article again and it said 12000 nok, which is 2063 usd. Still pretty steep.

I searched for a dealer on the new Pronto page, found none, and no mention of Mono AS.

So peculiar? Not at all.

Just for your info , Philips can track where all the pronto's have come from they log all the serial numbers, i know this as i have had one tracked down that appered in our country :)

Why do you think there has been a big shake up of dealers in the USA, Philips are trying to aquire good professional compaines to look after there products, it not just happen with prontos, but with there other products like , TV. shavers, audio products , even baby monitors etc etc..

I am not a CI, nor in the biz. But changes can happen for many reasons, Maybe the company dropped a competitors product, maybe the company has a new programmer that only knows Pronto, maybe the company just bought out a competitor and it grew a lot, maybe the company originally was mostly in something related but they just moved into AV......... and then there is the flip side, don't know about the AV industry but does every dealer buy directly from manufacturers or do most get them through distributors? If so why would you think it would be that visible to Philips.

Except for an old electric shaver (which will need replacing soon), I don't tend to buy Philips products, so I don't know what is happening elsewhere, and if it was not for this thread/forum I would not know what is happening with the Pronto line either.

as for "acquire good professional companies to look after there products" that was my point. It is natural for a company to want good dealers especially for something like a Pronto, which ,for most people, requires professional installation.


Do you mean that they told you it came from the US (or some other country) or that they said it was shipped to major distributor A that sold it to distributor B that then sold it to dealer C that then sold it ...... to the guy that brought it into your country?

The price in Norway is on par with the rest of Europe, Please do contact Glenn at Mono.no for help and assistance.

Anthony,

The thread is straying off topic and I'll accept some responsibility for this.

The current A/V market situation is that dealers get products both direct from the manufacturer and through distributors. This usually depends on the size and orientation of the manufacturer and the dealer. Large dealers typically have direct relationships with the manufacturer, but if the dealer needs one or two items for a special project, it is often not worth the time and effort required to develop a direct factory relationship. A dealer can get product from distributors the same or next day; it is often not possible to get a callback from a manufacturer in that time frame.

Obviously, the manufacturers may not know exactly how a given unit changed hands and leaked into the market, but they certainly know where they shipped a particular serial number. Manufacturers who are serious about cleaning up distribution and protecting their brand will purchase a unit from a suspect source. Also, if warranty service is requested, a bill of sale is required. Some manufacturers will refuse to service units with a checkered history.

I am not large enough to deal directly with Philips, but sales leads can filter down to me through my distributor. While I don't want to throw myself in the same bin as Lyndel, Barry Gordan and similar folk, the Pronto trainers will recognize me at training sessions and trade shows.

I assume that the new (yet to be seen) registration process will make me more visible to Philips.

I was going to post what deflektor said.  So a copy and paste...I am too a Level 1 and the only reason I got a pronto was to allow me to program it.  Most installers don't have a clue about this stuff, they just want to sell you something and get on with the next one.  This allows me to get it just the way I want.  Not the way some one thinks I want.  I probably should have been more active in this forum over the years, as I still have my TSU1000....I have found this community immensily helpful and informitive.  But I felt I really needed to post my displeasure with this as well incase Philips is counting users....

Wow!

I am a Marantz 5200 user for abt 8 years and have always programmed it myself with help only from generally available literature and (mostly) from this site. My Marantz has recently died and I was looking at prontos of today, e.g. 9400 as a replacemetn and as I was researching the today's stand of things ... I bumped into this thread!

I think today the only properly programmable remote is pronto. Ipad and the likes have huge potential but still evolving. Now, however, if Philips limits me in access to software and firmware, I do not want to pay the big money that pronots cost. This would push me into waiting for developments in tablet computers.

Philips, please let us know that we can still use (and program) prontos properly, with ongoing access to latest SW and FW.

I can then get the 9400 and be back to enjoying the benefits of truly programmable remotes. Otherwise, it will be one good thing less in the AV world.

I received a reply mail from my distributor today. A distributor who I had never contacted before.

They provide me with a registration code. I have access again.

I'll admit that I did not expect a reply, especially given current circumstances. I hope others have had / will have some good news today.

It is now past 6 pm in Belgium - Europe, and as I expected nothing has happened. In Philips decisions do not come lightly.

Be patient. I know that one of, if not the primary decision maker was out of town and expected to return today. I suspect it will take a day or two for Philips to work out the details. Meanwhile no one has lost anything they had.