Philips has spent much time and money to set up the distrbution to the same stanards as in europe over the last two year. The situation in the US was hurtin us in europe as well.

Look. Please go easy with dramatizing:

Now all works, right? Right.
PEP2 is still accessible, right? Right.
PEP2 works in vista/7, right? Mostly right.
New M$ OS is not coming before 2014, right? Seems so.
Can a FW be downgraded if you buy a remote that comes with a FW that works only with PEP3, 4, 5 ...25? Yes.

So now you have something that works and will work for at least 4 more years, in fact it will work longer. If a system comes out in which PEP2 doesnt work you always have the option of a virtual PC with XP for running PEP2. So up until now nothing changes, but true the future software updates are questionable. So make a bakcup of the FW's and PEP and you're good to go for 10 years or more. I'm not saying I fully support what is going on, but I understand philip's decision.


True you probably paid more, for 1 unit. PRofessionals usually don't buy one unit, but let's say 1 unit a week. Now make some calculations and figure out to whom Philips will offer more "support" or free modules? I believe you'll quickly find the answer. I also understand distributors, every remote that is sold past them and programmed by the wnd user is a loss in revenue. Then they are rightfully not happy if Philips let's the end users have all of the bonuses the distributor's / installers have, and they may move to other manufacturers.

Anyway how you turn it, Philips did not make the product to satisfy DIYers, because the revenue of this approach would not have covered the cost of the production, let alone of the development. So if they are feeling they are loosing professionals they will try to do something that will prevent this from happening, logically.

So all the views are understandable, Philips's, DIYers and Professionals's, and making everyone happy in a situation like this can be very tricky. So really, let's wait until Monday and see what happens.

Kudos to Lyndel and Barry on supporting this community.

First, I have been working for Philips for 21 years, now retired!

Philips is a strange company, having a lot of strength, and at the same time it often fails to cash in on it, and let competitors take their market.

When this is said, it is still in my opinon one of the 3 best companies in the consumer electronics market.

Seeing some of the comments from distributers/installers in this thread stating that they are loosing turnover because of the Pronto sold out of other channels, resembles the Movie industry, who put an illegal downloaded movie equal to a lost sale - which is not the case at all.

Same here with the Pronto. The reason I bought it, was that I finally after spending too much USD on poor product found a product which could solve my remote control problems, as I saw the remote controls replicate like rats, needing at this time more than 11 different remotes to operate my home electronics.

If I could only buy the Pronto from an Installer with him installing some software to a price, and I not being able to do it all myself - I WOULD NEVER have bought a Pronto - and I am sure that most of the Hobbyists on this forum will say the same.

So the Pronto lives because we are willing to pay a Professional price for a professional product, knowing that the pricing is as it is, because ot the very limited number of items to be sold. This means that the Cost Price must be higher and we accept.

So forget the streghten of the Distributer/Installer chain if we as hobbyists are Axed, it will not raise their turnover as we all will look for new possibilities and new products, and not forgiving that we have lost several thousand USD in the process.

I send my thanks to Barry and Lyndel for their efforts, as I know how difficult it can be to get in contact with the right people in an organisation as Philips.

I am very courious to see what happens monday!

Per

Yep, never would have bought it! Phase-out the DIY's and the market will probably shrink dramatically.

There seems to be a lot of talk about authorized distributors etc. and their business being hurt.

Maybe some can enlighten me on what the problem is, because as I see it:
- There is not any fake Prontos or 'china copies' around.
- Not a single Pronto has reached its 'home' without passing the hands of and authorised distributor/dealer.
- Not a single Pronto has ever been sold at loss for Philips, they have always gotten the price they have asked.

Does Philips as a company disagree with these statements? I'm sure they don't.

Is the end customer, who has offered a product, supposed to check whether the seller is legit or not? As long as the item is not stolen, I dare to say no.

So, who is at fault who is being 'punished' and who is protected by this?
1st part, I'd say Philips or an authorised distributor/dealer.
2nd part, the end user, buying the item in good faith.
3rd part, authorised distributors/dealers or maybe Philips.
- Go figure...

The 'grey market' discussion seems to be based on the illusion that Philips has not willingly sold these items, but in fact they have.
And now they try to both have the cake and eat it.

"There is something rotten in the state of Denmark"

I agree with you. Why punish the end-user when they them self have been loose with whom they do business with.

Technically, there is a software license agreement that users accept when they install PEP. Has anyone ever read that agreement? If not, have a look.

;-)

I am disappointed as well. After having owned their remotes for the last 10 years or so I will have to make a decision. That decision will be to find another alternative. I sold all of my Pronto equipment because I relocated and did not know how long I would be between home theaters. Wow am I glad I did! I think this is a poor decision by Philips. It's likely that I would have remained a Pronto customer as long as I owned a home theater. The phrase, "once bitten, twice shy," comes to mind,now however. If the present decision stands, I am sure I will never buy another Pronto product. I respect the company's decision. It is their product. Because I have sold all of my stuff, I will just move forward with alternatives.

I have some questions.

When will Remotecentral remove the files for Prontos?

Isn't this website breaking Philips dealer restriction policy by allowing anyone with a pc and internet to download the goods?

Is there going to be two Pronto Professional forums? One for those who are authorized and one for those who are not? Since different feature and functions might change according to your rank and access permission.

Everyone defending Philips keeps saying "its only for future updates."

That is the whole point!

Sooner or later without furture updates and newer software these units are going to become more and more obsolete. I already lost money on the defunked MarantzRC9001. Now its happenning to me with two TSU9600!

If there were restrictions in place telling the consumer about these limitations many people might have never invested their money into philips remotes. Philips might have never been able to develop the features and functions over the years as there market shares and popularity might have dropped. Who knows how it would of panned out. This is no way to repay loyal end-users.

Bottom line and I know lots of people are saying this but there are many many more options for control on the market these days.
Sure you have to reinvest again and maybe learn new software but when it comes to control Philips is no longer a top dog in the industry. And pissing off people is not the way to get to the top when your in the back of the pack.

People that did what Philips required to become certified for privilage access to files and such should still be granted that access. I took what I did seriously and spent my time and hard earn money on a product I believed in and from a company I trusted.
Just to be backed stabbed a short time later isn't sitting well with me at this point in time.

They better come up with a solution soon!

I think that the statements made by “eleson” are the most pertinent statements made here. The money made by Philips is genuine and their profits have not suffered by having a hobbyist do their own programming.
If distributers and dealers think that the decline in profits from sales of Pronto is due strictly to “black market sales” they are mistaken. Please take a look at the economy especially here in the US.
I wish the people that think this is a good move for Philips would put as much effort in lobbying lawmakers to do something about economical issues as they do defending the decision by Philips.
I myself have lost a lot of money in this move. I was looking for a new way to make money after being unemployed for over a year. I invested money into becoming a dealer, programmer and installer, only to get shut out just like most here.
I have also been an avid Pronto user since the first unit became available but I still do not have the expertise and the creativeness of several of the people here such as Lyndel , Barry, Daniel, and others. I believe that Philips has profited from these people in many ways and it is shameful to abandon people such as these. I am an electrical engineer by trade and have over 20 years of programming experience so I do know talent when I see it.
Philips will only hurt themselves and others with this type of decision. I would like to see this decision overturned or at least modified. I thank all that are in touch with Philips from here for their efforts on our behalf. I have also written to Philips and I think that all of you that have not done so should.

I guess everyone knows where I stand. I would just like to state some things that are obvious to me and some that tick me off. First of all I still have a few TSU1000's, and a few iPronto's. I have all the software to do things with them and that software runs on Windows 7. I am looking to set up an iPronto for my sister in her new home and she will be very happy with it.

Microsoft has done a very good job on backwards compatability. I will not discuss Vista as that was a disaster and every Vista user should have been given a free or greatly discounted copy of Windows 7. All machines I own run XP or XPe except for my development system which runs both Win 7 and MAC OS X (Snow Leopard) I have no issues moving things I write between the two MS OS's.

MS OS's cost a lot because that is the MS revenue stream, They don't make hardware. MAC OS X is $30 retail (legitimate), Their revenue stream is hardware not software, software is the "Necessary Evil".

I have been in the digital (Software and Hardware) industry all my life. I am not pleased with the way things are done, especially in the A/V world, and somewhat in the PC world although things are finally much better IMHO on computers.

We, the end users, seem to accept the fact that things may not work correctly, that equipment may "crash", that features promised are not delivered. We feel that as part of accepting this state of affairs which I and every one of us has allowed to proceed by not returning a "BOX" and telling the seller to shove it as it does not do what it is supposed to and documented to do; that we have some legal or moral right to upgrades.

In the back of my mind, I know that I bought a device at a point in time. I have agreed to a license agreement and have no other contractual arrangement with the seller or manufacturer. But being a person whose prime driver is self interest I will attempt to get whatever I can and use what ever legal means including ranting and raving to get what I want, [note: what I want not necessarily what I need]. I do adhere to the US mercantile test summed up as "A toaster shall make toast" which AFAIK overrides all warranties.

I bought a $4000 MSRP Audio Procesor from a valid dealer of that equipment. It was so buggy that after a year of bearing with the promises, poor service and lies, I sold it for almost what I paid for it and bought a different product at twice the cost. My dealer would not take it back and said to return it to the manufacturer. I chose not to go to court. I am satisfied with the new one, but it also has some glitches. IMHO no one will ever get HDMI correct. Specs that change faster than one can write code that is solid and tested cannot be programmed. Writing code is like skating on ice. It is better of things are frozen.

Would I have a big problem if Philips charged a fee for upgrade/support/library yes, but not a big one. I have started to do some apple development (iPAD) and it costs $100 annually to be an apple developer. This gives access and support. I understand why, software is not Apples main revenue stream, although that is slowly changing also. I believe the cost to administer such a fee at Philips would make it a non-starter.

Philips is the largest lighting manufacturer in the world AFAIK. It has a nice A/V business based on TV's and to a lesser degree receivers. It deals with consumer products like shavers. It's Remote Control business is way down the list from a revenue standpoint. I have to hand it to the Pronto team for just being able to continue operations in the Philips Corporate environment.

rogerdata, if you are a dealer, programmer and installer you should have no problems in obtaining the registration number. It's not people like you this move ment to remove from the user base of the pro site. Contact a distributor near you if that fails contact the prontoteam regarding the code.

This is exactly what I meant in my post. Philips deals in Lightning, and all other things in that company is offspring from this. They have all the resources to become the no. 1 - as they were when colour televisions evolved, In Europe they had close to 70% of the market, today that must be less than 10% - sad but true.

As been said many times, the Pronto's will still work at current levels, but with no support and further development - it is a dead duck. So lets hope they come to their senses and give access to us again.

I would not read too much into it, don't forget that most people just want to know what is going on (and hope there will be a solution), so we read but don't bother posting. Like some have already pointed out
1) Our remotes/SW did not turn to bricks, we can still use our Prontos and program them so nothing has changed, except access to a site we probably never visit.
2) if we need PEP2 then we can DL it from here. So even if we buy a new PC or need to re-install PEP we are not in any real trouble.

In the end there is more then enough time to wait and see, and if when this does impact (buy a new remote/ PEP2 is incompatible with the OS on the new PC) then we will make a decision based on the facts at that time. And since, at least for me, I have no idea when that will be it is not important enough to post (but that does not stop me from reading).

I also think a lot of us are rational, like someone said we are Pronto customers, but what he failed to realise is that DIY are not the only Pronto customers and we (as individuals) buying a remote every few years are not as important as the CI customer that might buy hundreds of them a year. So it is normal that they will want to protect (and possibly gain) that stream.

Am I a bit annoyed, yes, I had Prontos since 1999 when I first came on this site and found out about this awesome remote and now I don’t know if the next time I want a new TS remote if it will be a Pronto, since I am not interested in having to have someone come in to tweak it for me when I feel like changing things because I am bored or something.

so it is all your fault :)

I don't think the issue is Philips, that is why they are not the only ones that are stopping the SW from getting into individuals hands. In the end it is impossible to stop the dumping. You might have more ethical regards, but the issue is that the distributors charge lower amounts for customers buying in higher volume (which makes sense). So what happens some dealers instead of buying X which they need, they buy Y for the lower price and then sell the rest on e-bay under a different name, They made more money buying them cheaper on the original jobs and so the rest are just there to be dumped.

That is the difficulty, it is impossible to know A (legitimate sales) and B (e-bay /heavily discounted sales) are the same company, it is almost impossible to track where they come from, so hard to stop (and let’s face it, you bring one down and an other one can take it’s place) That is why “registration” works well and probably why so many dealers are reluctant to give away codes, If you know key X was given to dealer X and now that code is used by e-bay /discout dealer B then you have a link.