Just another quick message about Jim L's statement on Silver Pronto warranty. This came up in our discussion with Philips NA. After pointing out to them that the warranty document included with the Silver Pronto clearly states the unit has a "Worldwide" warranty, and even gives a U.S. point of contact and phone number, they reluctantly agreed that warranty service has to be provided on these units until that document is changed.

I understand the reason NA wants to discourage this practice of selling Euro prontos, and it comes down to dollars. Execs at Philips North America do not receive credit for these sales, their European counterparts do... So again, Philips NA is more concerned with their paycheck than the consumers right to choose. I pointed out to them that it might be a good idea to make Silver units available via U.S. distribution, since many customers like the Silver unit (myself included), but they were unreceptive to this idea...

It is a frustrating situation, and we thank everyone who has participated in this discussion. Hopefully when this thread is forwarded to Philips, someone will at least step back and take a look at their policies, since many appear to be questionable at best...

This is a shock to me. I bought my Pronto from One Hit Wonders and received top notch service (both Jim and Warren were more than accommodating) This smells a lot like the big chains threatening Philips because they are not geting their "cut of the pie" of on item that is in hot demand (and probably has a tremendous markup at regular retail prices). As an example, I saw the Pronto at the Wiz marked $449.00. That kind of crap wouldn't be tolerated by e-commerce shoppers. I think we are seeing the same garbage pulled by a few record labels, who coerced stores into keeping prices high on CDs. Well, I hope like them, Philips pays the price.

I have no problem with spending an additional $50 or so dollars to get an item at a brick and mortar store. The service is usually better, I can test the item before I buy, and if it dies soon after purchase I just spend an hour or so to get a replacement. My problem with Phillips statement is this. Most of us were forced to go to the web because the local stores didn't have any in stock! I was unwilling to wait over 6 months for my name to get to the top of the local back-order list. If Phillips wants to limit who can sell this remote, they better increase their production to keep up with the demand!!!! This remote and dvd's are the only 2 items I can think of where the consumer is willing, almost begging, to buy said products.

I agree with Jim Lenn. regarding the local shops support, as I stated in a previous thread. I supplement local shopping with online shopping, and I go where I feel the best "deal" is, with both customer service and the price. E-commerce does not hurt local shops AT ALL. It simply changes how they do business. I know many local shops that created an website that mimics their local store, and you know what? They are actually improving their sales to out-of-city customers. If they are not willing to change to this mode of business, then they are not savvy business owners. It is very cheap to create a site and maintain it. Web access is FREE, home or business pages are FREE, etc. No reason to not spend the month of ramp-up time to create an online site offering the same services and products as your own physical store.

Anyway, if the price is good at Best Buy or Circuit City, with a comparable percentage of the web prices, then I would certainly buy from local stores. I am an avid electronics purchaser and use the 10% off coupons at BB, along with open box specials at 20% off, to come home with deals that beat any on-line price. For example, I bought a Pioneer CD burner for $250 (reg. $325) using this scheme (open box special + 10% customer coupon), whereas at the time the best price anywhere on the web was like $280. I have done this a few times. However, if the price is not right (Pronto $499 vs. $285, big difference!), I want to buy the product on-line. It will probably come down to the price on the Pronto as to how happy or supportive of Philips I become.

Jim Len...
Yes, I do agree that I may "act" overboard and exaggerated and perhaps you may think I have a loose noodle.. This really isn't the case. Sometimes it seems that the only way to get heard is to stand up on your soapbox and shout! Yeah the people may snicker and pass you off, but you've been heard. And this is a great soapbox. Why do you think they teach multiplication and division year after year.. Because if it's drilled into you then you will remember it when the time comes.. It may even make sense.

I do not and have not purported that Philips or any other companies have perfect plans... I have never thought that, but there are a few companies with business plans that I really do admire. The not only work in their interests, but those of the employees the vendors, and lastly... the buying public. If you have a great product and treat people well..... You can actually do well. Sure you can also treat people like a bunch of sheep and force your employee's into brutal slavery and the public will still snap it up because "Jordan" say's it's great, but a few people are trying to recognize and realize and make some change... On ANY level.
Just pick up any of the business magazines that are naming the best companies to work for .. Big and small.. You can see that all corporations aren't evil entities out to kill for money. I will in turn do my small part to support these companies when I can.

If we turn a blind eye to what's happening in this world and let the fools on capitol hill keep feeding us into believing that we are living in the best times ever.. Well, I think you know the rest.

As far a the malls outside of town? That was what I was talking about.. The upcroping of so many in the 60's and 70's. Has caused a lot of ruin. No, it's not the death of society, and I to have a good time hangin' out at the mall, but I really don't have much choice do I?

Please don't pass me off as some nut. I'm just trying to open your eyes a little to what you already obviously know! I for one think it's shameful to turn the "blind eye" when making shopping decisions.

And YES a lot of things will change in this format in the years to come.. your free ride will come to an end.. -see Napster problems-

If you have decades on me, and you still only think of your bottom line when making purchases then I am truly sad for you and yours... Continue with your progress..

Again.. I do not think that Philips and other companies always have the best interests in mind when making these decisions, but they may inavdvertantly take a step in the right direction. If they screw up so bad, then people won't buy their product. Why be concerned about their decisions??.. Unless you are a major shareholder.

The choice is always yours, but you know what they say.. If I can get through to one person.. then it's worth it.

It appears as if this thread is turning into a debate over brick and mortar stores verses the internet.

We have no problem with brick and mortar stores selling Philips (or any) products. As a matter of fact, the more people selling the product, the more the market for the product will expand, creating value for consumers and vendors alike.

The issue really is whether consumers prefer to be dictated to by a manufacturer as to where we purchase from in a particular channel. If the large retail chains valued the Pronto as a product, don't you think they would have marketed it up to this point? If e-commerce vendors have been able to manage the product shortages and procure product whenever possible, could not a Best Buy, Circuit City, or the like done the same? With their purchasing power and "direct" connections to the manufacturer?

The point is that these chains have taken little interest in this product to date, so why should they now be GIVEN the market that e-commerce sites have developed and serviced to the best of our ability. The market that websites such as Remote Central have supported in such a graceful manner? If they want to sell the Pronto via their stores, more power to them...

If they want to sell Prontos via the web, thats fine too... But let the existing e-commerce vendors who have been providing this product and building online demand continue to service their customers!

For J Pickett: I'm really not trying to turn this into a B&M vs. e-commerce debate. I agree with you. My point is I don't like anyone trying to limit consumer choice, be they a mega-corp or a private individual arguing the evils of one form or another. Both have their advantages and a balance will be reached over time. I really hope Philips backs off of it's current stand as I distrust their motives.

For Jay: I certainly don't think you're a nut. I am guilty of the occasional overstatement as well. I also don't think all large companies are evil. I just point out the ones I feel are. Unfortunately, the good ones don't get much publicity. Actually, I admire your philosophy. You're a vendor and you're treating other vendors as you want to be treated. That's admirable. Far too many people seem to have forgotten the "golden rule". Most of us are not vendors however. Companies, distributors, and vendors are all economic entities. Their prime motivation is monetary. Smart consumers should also. When in Rome ...By the way, loved your analogy about math. I teach it, and yes, repetition is the key to learning.

Jim L

Thanks Jim, your kind words are refreshing to hear and very much appreciated.

For the record, I Started my company just a couple years ago after working for many others that couldn't treat employees or customers with proper respect, but I have been Pro-Local economy since I was about 10 years old and saw Main Street dry up.

Now I have these forums and others to speak my mind. And nobody has to listen, but people will still complain.. Just Like they do about bad TV..

Don't like it??.. Turn it off!

I think that debating whether buying from your local store or the internet is "right" or "good for America," is about as satisfying as debating whether unions are good or which political party is "right." People will always have passion for both views on these types of issues.

Jay - I welcome your thoughts (and spent a lot of time actually reading your posts) on the issue at hand. However, there is a touch of you trying to foist your views on others as the "better" way. That will always evoke retort from others and cause you (and those who think as you do) to defend their position or attack those not like-minded.

What I like is the ability to have a CHOICE! If I want to choose to spend more money and get better service, or the ability to walk a few blocks to make returns - great. However, if you don't care about those things and just want a "no frills" gadget, or maybe you live in the middle of nowhere and the nearest Best Buy is 185 miles away - you should also have recourse.

Unfortunately, economics is a rough science - it typically doesn't factor in nostalgia. If enough people choose to forego the extra service for a lower price, then some stores will not succeed. Additionally, if some e-tailers really shaft customers and really don't sell at a significant discount, they too will fail. It might sound Darwinian, but that is the society we live in. Just think about how crappy American cars were in the late 70s - until other's challened them to "get with the program." My first car was an old Camaro, my second a new mustang. However, when I saw how I got hit on resale value, I bought a Honda. When I buy me next car, the same thought will go into that decision.

When I buy something (especially something that will set me back a few hundred/thousand) I look at ALL the factors - not just price. Anyone who goes for the cheapest price as the only factor deserves what they get. I could not consider myself a smart shopper with an attitude of "I will only buy from [fill in the blank], regardless."

Trying to make a long post even longer, the consumers of the Pronto (and like products) deserve their right to choose.

Chas

Very simple: $$$!
Phillips is a corporation large enough to alter the food chain and will do so if it is in their interest!
Anyone who feels that their action is benign and for the good of the consumer has recently been hit by a "stupid" pole.
Just my thoughts; a consumer with little power to change the big picture except to consider buying a Phillips product very carefully before doing so!!

Chas,

Well said, I agree entirely. I don't think price is the only factor. For me it's probably #1 and it's importance varies directly with both the price of the good or service and the discount being offered. But, there are definitely factors #2, #3, etc. Consumer choice is paramount, importance of factors is a matter of individual taste. Everybody's different. Again, well said.

Jim L.

It's seems nice that some people are making excuses for Philips' outrageous behavior, but it boils down to price fixing. I don't know about other countries represented in this forum, but in the US we have strict laws to prevent price fixing and restraining competition. Trouble is, most ofen nothing is done until some loud entity - a large company, a group of small companies, or a large group of individuals, make formal complaints.

I strongly suggest that any distributors who receive any of these threatening letters from Philips hang onto them as evidence. Call Philips for clarification to verify that they really intend to break the law, and make a record of (or, better yet, record on tape) the conversation.

If you are a small business or an end user looking to purchase a Philips product and are informed by your distributor of a retailer that Philips refuses to allow them to sell you their products, make a careful record of the conversation, or better yet, get it in writing.

Now, send this evidence to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and we'll read in the news about Philips executives and marketing strategists being hauled off in handcuffs from their offices!

What these jackasses need is a damned good spanking, and I think the Feds are up to the task!

I'd like to add to my rantings, above, that if it were not for the Internet, I would never have even heard of the Philips Pronto. Furthermore, if it were not for the Internet, I would not have been able to purchase one! Not one store - not Circuit City, Best Buy, Sears, nor any other store that sells home electronics in the Phoenix metropolitan area (one of the largest in the country) stocks the Philips Pronto or the Marantz RC5000. So, Philips' solution is that I should simply do without because their product is a little esoteric for the local environment. Right. See you in court, you nutcases!

It's interesting philips, a company who's products are found at lowe's, sears and every other mass merchandiser would be concerned about who sells them. The Pronto is about the only decent thing in their lineup and now I don't even want that. Maybe the rc5000 is the way to go.

Tom,

I feel the same as you, but unfortunately reseller agreements are legal. From a consumer standpoint it's restraint of trade, but Philips has a right to restrict who their distributors sell to. It's only when a company is large enough (or efficient enough) to be considered a monopoly (aka Microsoft) that their actions are legally considered a restraint of trade. By the way, Frankf, Marantz also restricts who can sell their product. Not many places on the net selling their stuff (comparativly that is). IMHO they are much more above board than most, however. They have done this for a long time and attempt to police their distributors, not play both ends against the middle.

Jim L