In a Home Theater how do you determine what level to stop at, I don't want the quality of the cable to exceed the quality of my equipment,and yes I know all about how they should be a percentage of you build budget which I think is a bunch of hog wash. I want my speaker and inter connect cables to at least be on the same playing field as my components. How do you accomplish this how do others approach this?

The magic ratio is to spend 1/4 of the cost of your system on cables, and of that 3/4 should be devoted to interconnects and 1/4 to speaker cables.
Then I do the dance of the audio gods and perform the speaker cable chant.
Then I sprinkle magic fairy dust on the speaker cables.

Or you could buy some 12 AWG speaker cable for about $1 per foot which will serve you as well as anything on the market REGARDLESS of whether your theater cost $2000 or $200,000 and be done with it.

The guys at MIT showed me an X-ray image that was done by a surgeon that bought a set of Oracle cables; the ones that have the "magic box" about 3/4 of the way down the cable (much like MIT's). It was nothing more than the neg lead wrapped around a ferite core. He spent about $10k, I think, on that pair of speaker cables.

I have personally listened to systems connected with thousands of dollars in cable, and the same systems done with by-the-foot cable with quality (and professionally installed) interconnects. I cannot for the life of me tell the difference.

If the client requests them, I'll be more than happy to let them spend their money. Otherwise, I use quality interconnects and carefully make up the by-the-foot cables and not one client has any qualms about it.

That sure is hog wash. That says that if you put together a system and spec speaker wire, then add, say, a $5000 component of some sort, you should spend more money on the speaker wire although nothing at all about the connnection between the amps and the speakers has changed.

Fantastic thread!

I think it is ironic that as "pros" we are the first to say that expensive cables are "hog wash". Especially since its a profit margin. People that think we are greedy over chargers should take note. Im not gonna sell radio shack wire or anything but quailty sheeth for easy pulls is more important to me than some magic wire.

As the poster stated above if the client wants them I will sell them but only if they insist.

Good point Sound.SD

It's hog wash Ernie but the then again so is the business of selling high-end cables in the first place. When I used to work in high-end audio one of the things that the cable manufacturers hammered into the sales people and the sales people in turn into the customers was how your cables should cost a certain percentage of your system - usually the number was 25% or some such nonsense. Of course otherwise the world was going to come to an end and your "cables aren't going to be able to reveal all that your components are capable of". I LOVE high-end audio systems but unfortunately the words "high-end audio" these days pretty much equal "bullshit".

To my knowledge, and what I have used in practice- The percentage basis was primarily a factor of retail style selling where a customer planned to buy x TV for 3000, x speakers for 1500 and x amp for 1000, and only planned to spend 5000 (yes I know the math doesnt work, but thats the normal retail customers planning).

So to counter this I would normally ask/approximate/or figure out the customers planned budget and then explain that you will also probably need to factor in about 20-30% for cabling/power/remote/other accessories/etc (usually aiming higher then neccessary to not have to fight at the end), plus tax, plus the highly recommended (but annoyingly dreadful to present) "Extended Warranty", and whatever else the boss says to push today.

From the CI perspective cabling is part of the process, and is part of the designed package. Now my assumption is most of us have/offer 2 or 3 'levels' of cabling, the cheap stuff, the good grade which we collectively or individually feel is a great value and performs well, and then a higher end offering that we occaisionally present when we feel the designed package could definitely benefit from its presumed increase in quality.

So, I would not say the Percentage Basis of estimation is Hog Wash, but rather a tool to be used while planning or budgeting.

As far as the level of diminishing levels of marginal returns are concerned with upper echelon grades of cables, Buy what you feel offers what you want, and are comfortable with. And don't feel bad if one of those factors is looks, because it is fun to show off your stuff and say look how cool this cable is...Or maybe thats just me!

studio theater,
A salesmans job is to make money, period. Don't take his/her word for anything that he/she can't prove. Heed the advice above, it will serve you well. If you can solder, make all your own interconnects (bar optical, DVI and HDMI and avoid DVI and HDMI if you can). All you need for interconnects is decent RG59 coaxial cable and decent plugs to fit on it. It will work just as well and the highest price interconnects sold. In fact i have seen very, very expensive interconnects that are just what i discribe above except with the addition of a fancy wrap around the cable (probably to hide what kind of cable was used.

Simon.

It's hog wash because there is no truth in it. If I'm building a home and it's 10,000 sq ft depending on geographic area I can reasonably assume that it's going to cost from xx to xx dollars per square foot for the electrical wiring. If I finish the floors with wood floors or 24 karat gold plated marble it's not going to change the cost to properly install the electrical.

But in the bizarro world of high-end audio I would need to increase the budget for electrical because I now need to use the special copper/silver electrical wire so the electrical signal in my home is up to snuff compared to my 24 karat gold plated floors.

Now it goes without saying that if it's a big system and there are more components the cost of interconnects is going to go up you add components, but the percentage of cost should not go up (within reason of course, if you add a speaker that requires a two mile cable run, it might change things).

I've never heard anyone suggest (including the OP) that a whole house audio project should include a 25% budget for cabling. This is a normal (as Eastside said) tool to be used for over-the-counter sales where someone is buying a receiver/DVD/Speakers and taking them home. There is nothing wrong with budgeting for that.

Every time this comes up, I stand here defending high-end wire. I feel like Don Quixote. There is ABSOLUTELY a difference between wires.


Sorry, Simon, but if there's any hog wash being spread here, it's this.

Are they just fine for DA and an average HT? Of course! If you are really spending 200k on a theater, should that be what you use for interconnects? I hope not!

PT Barnum aside, if there were REALLY no difference, the wire industry wouldn't exist. Companies like Shunyata and Tara Labs etc... Would have long ago gone out of business.

The one thing I will grant you all is: Don't buy expensive high-end wire if you can't hear it first. Go to a real audio store and audition them. Just as with loudspeakers, there are significant differences from one brand to another. You may like one, and I may hate it.

There I go, tilting at windmills again.

Norm

Past a certain level of the correct type & gauge of wire I've never personally been able to hear the "sonic veil lifted" or experienced "more air" with the tweak-approved cables. So yeah, I'm always sceptical.


I'll give you possibilty that I've just never properly "auditioned" cables in the perfect enviornment where the differences would become obvious, but the "high-end wire industry wouldn't exist if it didn't work" argument is total bunk. Try these on for size...

"The weight loss products I see on TV couldn't possibly exist if they didn't work".

"The Nigerian financial offers I get in the mail/email couldn't possibly exist if they didn't work".

"Bose speakers couldn't possibly be the biggest selling brand if they weren't the best".

PT Barnum is alive & thriving.

Tweak cable companies and salesman may actually *believe* the extreme cables are semi-magical or they may just be *profit oriented*... I always wonder about this. Either way, some customers will want to buy them out of insecurity, ignorance, pride, arrogance, whatever.

Human nature has not changed.

Could this not be settled with a frequency generator and an oscilloscope? Or is there more to it than I think?

Materials needed:

1 oscillocscope
1 frequency generator
1 meter of quality wire
1 meter of extreme high fidelity wire

Forgive the use of "meter", I like the easy math of counting in tens :)

a) Connect oscilloscope to freq generator, sweep the audible band and create a base line.
b) Interconnect oscilloscope to generator using quality wire, repeat steps in a) record any change in amplitude.
c) Repeat steps in b) with high fidelity wire.

Compare results and the arguement is over. Or is there some other varible that can't be determined, like records sounding better than cds kind of thing?

I think some of the other cats have already posted the right info. I simply use what speaker wire is needed. If the run is x feet long you need 16/2. If the run length is y length you need 14awg and so forth. Most of the time I will run the info through PMK Wire Calculator.

We had a client the other day ask us to bi-wire all his speakers. I said ok. He then asked if it was worth it. I might get slammed for my response but I told him for his equipment it was not worth the extra cost. He was thrilled that I was willing to tell him the truth even though he knew it would take away from my $$. Got 2 calls from his friends as the "Honest Installer" rep was what they were looking for.

That is what we do any ways.

It has already been settled with numerous scientific tests just as it's been established that the earth is round. Doesn't stop people from believing the earth is flat.