Hello folks! :)

I have an antenna situation at my place that we need help in. I've been getting abnormal and unreliable reception for alot of channels on DTV in Buffalo/Toronto.

We live in the extreme southwestern portion Mississauga near Oakville (Clarkson village area). We're not right by the lake, but we are quite close. Probably no less than a kilometer from the shore. (500-600m),

Recently my dad purchased an outdoor EagleStar 8-bay antenna Model 53-6305-2. (Basically 2 53-6305s combined). [Link: eaglestarpro.com]

I know nothing of this brand, but it's just a UHF antenna so I figured brand doesn't really entire matter. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not really into this TV stuff. We're really on a budget and we don't want any fancy gadgets or stuff. Just solid reliable free OTA DTV from Buffalo and Toronto. My dad said he got both the converter and antenna(s) from some place on Dixie and Matheson.

We also got a Artec digital converter box for our TV. [Link: artectv.com]

Seems our setup is working on the technical side of things. Let me describe the setup. (We initially bought the converter only so my dad could watch WNED but were surprised at the fact we recieved so many channels we never saw before!)

The antenna we have is classified as a rooftop antenna, but it isn't mounted on the roof. It's about 10 feet above the ground on an old tripod. Although the picture below might illustrate many obstructions, the only obstructions I can note are my house and few other houses nearby. The tallest part of our house runs around 25 feet. But the antenna itself is positioned 20 feet AWAY from the house, and is pointed at 70 degees away from it. It's propped against my neighbour's metal fence and backed by hedges.


The two cables running from the 2 four bay antennas are linked with a Phillips reverse converter about 25 feet from the antennas themselves.


The single coaxial cable then runs into our basement for another 50 feet before reaching the converter and our TV.
The antenna is pointed close (not exactly) towards Buffalo. I say if you took a pieslice of the angular distance between Buffalo and Toronto, it's pointed say 80% towards Buffalo, 20% towards Toronto.

This is a birds eye chart based off google earth.
The blue line is the avg. direction of the toronto transmitters (CN Tower + First Canadian Place/2).
The red line is the avg. direction of the Buffalo transmitters (Grand Island + Buffalo South/2)
The black line is the direction of my antenna.


These are the channels I can get reliably (90-100% of the time), no matter what conditions.

23-1 WNLO (avg 70-75% strength) This is not surprising provided the 1000kW in all directions.

These are the channels I can get somewhat reliably, but can fade out in cloudy, poor conditions (recieving it around 80% of the time).

4-1 WIVB (avg 50-60% strength)

These are the channels I can get reasonably well, but usually fade out in adverse conditions, uusally only visible on sunny days (around 60-70% of the time).

2-1, 2-2, 2-3 WGRZ (avg 40-50% strength, sometimes jumps to 70%, still somewhat on the reliable end of this category, but goes out randomly at times) Surprising because it is said this is one of the harder channels to pick up.
17-1, 17-2, 17-3 WNED (avg. 35-50% strength, chops in and out often on the low end of the signal strength)
49-1, 49-2 WYNO (avg. 35-50% strength, sometimes jumps to 60-70% in rare occasions)

These are the channels I can get well only on clear cloudless days, or nights. Sometimes even during bad conditions they come on but very weak. Their behaviour is unpredictable and can range form strong signal to no signal at all. (around 30-50% of the time). When I do get them they can go in and out randomly.

7-1 WKBW (avg. 28-33% strength normally, sometimes can jump to 50%-70% rarely) I used to get this quite reliably and would fit it in the 2nd category 2 months ago but I'm guessing something moved so slightly.

These are channels I get once in a blue moon (5-10% of the time).
29-1, 29-2 WUTV (I was surprised I got this once for 15 minutes at 33%. I never got it again and it usually skipped a little)

These are channels I never get. This is probably what really annoys me surprisingly. Oddly my recieve reports these usually at 16-20% strength. Remember my reciever needs at least 33% to get a constant signal. I think my reciever only displays signals in 16, 20, 25, 33, 40, 50, 66, 70, 85, and 100% increments. I live in Canada. Why am I not recieving my own TV stations?

5-1 CBLT (I do get this oddly on stormy nights, but very poorly at around 33% so chops in/out constantly.)
9-1 CFTO I want my CFTO news in lovely 16:9!
11-1 CHCH (actually I do get this once in a blue moon but very rarely and usually chops in/out after 5 minutes)
25-1 CBFLT
26-1 WNYB (I couldn't care less about this channel from what I heard of it)
36-1 CITS (Never got this one ever.)
41-1 CIII (Never got this one ever.)
44-1 (69) CJMT (OMNI.2)
51-1, 51-2, 51-3, 51-4 WPXJ (Never got this one ever, don't plan to but would be nice!)
52-1 CKXT (Never got this one ever.)
57-1 CITY
64-1 (47) CFMT (OMNI.1 Never got this one ever.)

SO basically I inexplicably recive zero Canadian channels, using an outdoor 8-bay antenna that is supposedly supposed to work within 70miles within transmitters. I'm actually surprised I can pull in South Buffalo channels better than this. And they are somewhat actually reliable. Perhaps the best explanation of this is that the antenna is pointed southeast rather than east and their higher powers, but still...even indoor antennas pick these channels better than my outdoor. Which again is inexplicable.

I have another indoor attic antenna that I use to pick up the analog signals of the Canadian TV stations really well. I'ved used this for over 15 years. When I hook that to my DTV converter, I pick up all Canadian DTV channels reliably except Global, OMNI1, SUN, and Crossroads. WNED and WNLO come in too at 50%. CITY at 33% and is choppy. This antenna is more directional and pointed east which could explain why.

But I don't want to have to change antennas constantly.

Sorry for the excruciatingly long post. I just wanted to describe my problem, setup, and reception as best as I can.
Which means all this boils down to one question.

What should I do if I want to recieve all these channels reliably without using a rotor and/or switching antennas?
(Well ION and FOX can be excused because they are naturally difficult to recieve anyways no matter what) I don't expect to get CKVR (3) either once it does go digital (obviously because the signal is opposite to the antenna). I do expect CICA (19) though.

Should I aim somewhere else? Or aim it higher? We might be getting our neigbour's old antenna tower which is about 2.5 times the height of our current one. I'll post more detailed info if I can find it!

Any help would be greatly appreciated! ;D

As per your description I understand that you are acctually combining the 2 antennas , 25 ft away from them with that phillips splitter?. If this is the case then you better check the documentation of the antenna. They are supposed to be combined with their own "device" that has to be located at the antenna and with both feeder the same lenght to guarantee both signals get to the antenna in phase not out phase. This is a big issue in your set up by the way, although it does not account for the lack of Canadian stations reception.

As per your diagram Buffalo and CN tower transmitters are 90 degrees apart therefore you might need either a rotor or even better to aim the antenna somewhere between the 2 directions to increase canadian reception while decreasing a bit the buffalo ones , there most be a sweet spot that acomplish this for the most part of the stations.

As per the charts on this forum you will see that our canadian stations are transmitter at vere very very low power , at least until the swith over in August 2010 or 2011.

Higher is always better in this cases , well not always , as there are also "silence zones" or places where the signal level decreases due to reflections from nearby objects , trial an error your best freind to find the sweet spots vertically.

Brands are not the chicken of the rice chicken dinner but as per your picture and the fact that apparently the manufacturer does not supply nor indicates the correct location or placement of the matching or connecting device , says a lot of the non profesional quality of such antenna. In any case if they built it to the specs then it should work no matter who built it.

In my opinion an 8 bay for Clarkson is an over kill , I live in bloor and cawthra
and 4 bay channel master did the job pretty well bu tI had to find the swwet spot between the 2 directions to get the canadians reliably while keeping the most buffalo ones.

the connectors outside should be snap and seal (one is not as i can see) to better protect from the weather. you should also use weather boots on all of them.

the theoretical gain of a combined antenna is 3 db using the proper "device"that the antenna manufacturer should have supplied to you. a regular splitter like the one in your picture introduces a 3 db insertion loss on the trensmition line (read coaxial cable running in to the house).

BTW , Welcome to the forum. I am sure other users will chime in to help you.

If I were you I will try only one section of the antenna (using both like that acctually decreases the horizontal beam width and no need for the splitter/combiner) and you will be amazed of the results.

Yes, combine as close to the antenna as possible. The lengths of cable must be *exact*. And I mean really exact, not just close. However as suggested try one antenna by itself to see if there's any actual improvement with that. (Also to others: is it normal for an 8-bay to be shipped working like two separate 4-bays?)

From the directions everything's coming from, you very well may require a rotor. It should also be noted that an 8-bay is going to be more directional than a 4-bay, which isn't going to help with your current situation. Buffalo and Toronto are much closer together where I am in Markham, and even then I still find I need to be fairly exact on my aiming for some channels, especially distance ones. I know back when 49 was broadcasting at low power on 34, I literally had a 3 degree reception window.

Height is very important. 10 feet off the ground may not be good enough.

You may also find that your reception improves as we get into colder weather; my best reception of distant Buffalo stations is best in winter time.

Well I followed the suggestion of removing the phillips converter and just making it one 4-bay.

Virtually no difference. However tonight I'm managing to pull all Buffalo stations at 67-70%, regardless of setup. With the exception of PBS which is running at around 33-35%, hoping out once or twice every couple of minutes, but for the most part smooth. Still no FOX or ION or that religous station.

[personally the only channel I really need is WKBW so I can watch LOST in January. Those wonks at CTV pulled it off the main schedule and moved it to A, a really really dumb move if you ask me but...]

Still no Canadian stations, except CHCH which I'm pulling in at 33-35% behaviour similar to WNED.

I heard if you combine the 2 antennas, the signal loss isn't that bad if they're pointed at the same direction, which is perhaps why I don't really notice any difference.

But at least I can tell my dad he bought an extra antenna :P

But still, do you think I should switch to a ChannelMaster antenna? Seems like alot of you guys here use that. I wasn't with my dad when he went antenna shopping, so I don't know much about this stuff.

But the antenna tower we are going to set up is going to clear the roof so perhaps that will be some improvement?

Are there also any tools online or something that could help me determine the best way to aim an antenna to pull the most stations reliably? I mean so long as the signal strength manages to stay above 33% my reciever will be able to pick it up without any blocks or stuff like that. Though I'd hope for 50% to be on the safe side....

try tvfool.com , we canadians can use our coordinates to get the info we need as it only works with US Zip Codes. also www.antennaweb.com has a lot of info.

yes higher is better with UHF signals so if you can locate the antenna higher try that too. you might be a victim of strong multipath interference or distortion due to reflections from nearby objects (buildings , trees and other high structures) and that could account for non canadian reception specially since you mention you can only get CBC on bad weather. good weather means stronger reflected signals for you therefore multipath will kill your reception.

Channel Master has a lot of prestige in the industry over the years , their antennas are solid mechanically and well built , I highly recommend it but like I said what matters is that the antenna is built to specs , you can even build it yourself. BTW the 8 bay channel master not only comes with the proper matching or connecting device but it is also already assembled into the antenna itself to avoid the end user making the mistake of not properly attaching it.

Oh well , I just re-read my previous post and noticed all the grammar errors!!! , I can barely understand it myself , lol.

You might want to consider a rotor for the final set up since they are 90 degrees apart and this antenna does not have a 90 degrees side lob. And you can also sell the spare antenna to cover the cost of the rotor, lol.

The percentage in the link quality of the converter does not necessarilly means is a percentage of the level of the signal received. I acctually do not know exactly what it is in your converter but in most digital tuners or receivers (including satellite receivers) is either a combination of level/BER or just BER. BER stands for Bit Error Ratio and refers to the amount of bit errors received in the bitstream. well 95 % is actually the inverse BER since BER was 5 % but the inverse BER better reflects the quality of the digital link for an average user. the higher the number the better , but with digital signals , signal levels could increase while the noise (noise being anything other that the intended signal , so an adjacent tv station or even a far away station in the same channel are also noise) increasing too therefore BER or quality could stay fairly the same.

What I am trying to say is that with the 1 antenna set up even if signal levels increased other factors such as multipath could keep the quality of the link low so you wont notice a difference (S/N ratio or the ratio between signal and noise levels determines the ability of the receiver to decode the bits properly or not). Remeber the theoretical gain of a stacked antenna is 3 dB (equals double the power level) with practical results being from 2.5 to 2.9 and this is only obtained if done properly !!!. the stacking direction , vertical or hortizontal , decreases the beam width of the same direction while keeping the other direction beamwidth the same for horizontal polarized antennas like the ones we use for TV reception.

If I were you I would install one 4 bay as high to clear objects in the way with also a rotor and enjoy all the free dtv programming available in your area. Keep the cable runs as short as possible and use RG-6 coaxial cable to minimize losses.

Ahh I see. TVFool is neat, except for some reason the channel listings for the Canadian stations are misleading and incorrect. What's the deal with this?

How do RG-6 coaxial cables differ from the normal ones that we all know and love? :P

RG-6 cable has less loss at the higher UHF frequencies, meaning you get more signal into your TV maximizing your ability to get a reliable picture.

As far as TV fool goes, I think that once the Canadian conversion to digital is complete they will have correct information.

Check out my previous posting in
Forum
HDTV, Satellite & Cable
Topic: Help with HDTV antenna direction for US channels
For a list of latitude and longitude

Ahh. Well my neighbour just gave me his tower. It's really tall and I think can reach above the highest point of my roof.

Along with it was still attached some RadioShack UHF antenna that looks more like a frisbee or a small saucer. Anyone got any deets on that and is it better than let's say my current antenna?

I'll post some pictures tomorrow because we haven't actually put the thing up yet.

And how to we figure out where exactly to put this? Farther from the house is better right?

Apologies for the double post but I got new deets on my setup, and some more pictures, plus shots of the new tower and the antenna that came with it.

First a better view of the antenna we have now (The EagleStar 6305-2). The left bay and the right bay appear to be slightly (just slightly) misaligned angle-wise. This could be somewhat of an issue perhaps?


Next the vaguely printed instructions that came with it. (We mounted the rear bar horizontally because this looks alot more like a 4 bay, We got 2 of those and they were marketed as 8 so meh.)
Side 1


Side 2


And their claims (Which I still believe hold true somewhat if I can actually get it right)


Then our converter box. (Artec standard digital tuner yadda yadda)


Now onto the new stuff.

The neighbour gave us his tower and

This is the tower basically in 3 parts. One of those parts is already almost as tall as the current tripod our EagleStar 8bay (or 2 4 bays marketed as 8 :/) is resting upon. The thing should be 2-2.5x taller, and just slightly taller than the highest point of our house.


Next we have a closeup of the antenna part.


The model is apparently some RadioShack MiniState VHF Amplified/UHF antenna as shown here.


The top side of the antenna.


Problem is to test the antenna I'd actually have to figure out the cables. This one looks diffrerent than the standard coaxial connectors. I can only assume that the big one is an actual coaxial connector, and the smaller wire is ground, but what do I know. I'll send it off to you guys.

Cables from the antena.


Smaller cable end. Looks like it's messed (Ground?)


Larger cable end. Looks like a broken coax?


First off is this antenna even worth the try? If not I should make no effort in fixing those cables. If it is, how do I fix those cables?

Second, where exactly do I mount this tower in my backyard? Here is my yard right now, facing directly NE. The antenna is facing directly at Hamburg, NY. The house just slightly blocks it.


We have alot of trees and shrubbery and stuff because we like to grow organic food and other stuffs. ;) We also have a small railway with two small power lines running north-south towards petro-Canada on the east side of our backyard. Can anyone give a suggestion? It's a huge tower and there isn't much room for trial and error on this one. This is facing slightly northeast. As well, would it be better if we stacked the 2 4 bays vertically rather than beside each other? Will that make a difference? Or should I scrap one of them entirely.

Third, it's worth mentioning that recently WKBW's signal has reached the 67% mark again, but rather sporadically. Most of the Buffalo station's behaviour is very unpredictable. Sometimes one minute I'm getting 70% and the next 40% and back up to 70 or 60 or something.

I guess now I can get more general with the Buffalo stations receptions. For the past few days all of them have acted like this. ranging from 40-70 and changing rather quickly, though for the most part I've been able to maintain a clear picture with a few dropouts in midday. (WNED, WKBW, WNYO) are more prone to this. WNLO has also been acting more sporadic lately, but still clear. CBLT and CHCH have been coming in and dropping out every second at around 30%. No FOX, ION, or TCT still. (WUTV came in for about a minute a few nights ago).

Any ideas what's going on? And where I should go from this point based on the info I have?

Sorry for making this post so long again. I hope someone will bother to read it and help me. I make this detailed so much so I can get the best possible advice. Perhaps I can return the favour to newer members in the future.

Thanks! ;D

Update: Just a few hours ago I managed to pull in all Buffalo stations at 75-80! A first! Except PBS which was unfortunately hovering between 28-33% so meaning it dropped out constantly.

I even got WUTV at 35% for about 20 minutes, and I could have sworn that my recievers picked up the faintest trace of WNYB because in my list appeared 26-1 and 26-2. Although nothing was on it, not even callsign or program info. Still, tonight is pretty good! Still though, I wish it was more reliable....

Still no canadian signals, but I'm guessing because my antenna is pointed far far away from the CN tower.

so can anyone give any further advice to grab them all?

Aim one 4-bay towards Buffalo and the other at the CN tower.

PS: Nice garden!

Try shortening the leads between antennas and the splitter and buy a CM7777 preamp. Make sure the leads are the same length. You may need a rotor as your antennas are directional.

Thank you! It's all my parents haha.

As for the 4-bay aiming, I read somewhere that it was bad to combine 2 antennas in different directions, or is that wrong? I'm confused! Or does that only apply to two different TYPES of antennas? I don't have the rotating eagleStar model that goes 360 degrees.

And I'm assuming the CM7777 will work with a non CM antenna? :P

Oh, my mistake... I thought it rotated.. .


Yes.

Thanks for the advice! Before I head out and set this up though can someone answer two lingering questions?

1. Is the radioshack ministate antenna any good? If so how would I fix the broken coaxial cable? I did some digging and it looks like a multi-directional antenna. Any range figures?

2. Where in my backyard should I try to place the new tower? I'm sure at 25 feet it has a clear view of the lake and stuff. But with all the posible interference factors I've shown in my backyard, what's the idea place? Should I place it closer to my house, or farther away near the back fence near the power lines? Or somewhere in between? The tower is massive so there isn't much room for trial and error in actual placement so advice here would REALLY help!

3. A preamp is nice, but at the moment the antenna on it's own seems to be picking up the distant buffalo signals strongly fairly consistently. Is there any real benefit to having one in my situation? It's $100 for the CM7777. Are there cheaper alternatives?

Another reception report for today:
Today I got 26-1 and 26-2 for the first time! Fairly choppy for 5 minutes and quickly dropped out. All other major Buffalo stations rock solid at 80% except WKBW which bounces between 30-80%, and PBS which remains very problematic. No ION. Didn't see FOX today. CHCH coming in choppy consistently, and got a trace of CBLT again this afternoon. No other Canadian channels.