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Topic:
Will Blu-Ray win out over HD-DVD?
This thread has 39 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 40.
Post 31 made on Sunday August 5, 2007 at 21:32
Anthony
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FACT:

you should not use that word if they are not Facts


When DVDs were less than ten years old,

not sure what this has to do with anything, DVD came out in 97, HD DVD and BD came out in 2006 so obviously all work on both sides started before DVD was 10 years old.


SONY developed Blu-Ray in 2002 as a next generation data and video storage format alternative to DVD.

Not at all. Sony did not develop BD, there were several companies working on Blue laser disks. They wanted to add an HD format to the DVD specs, at the time Toshiba had a stronghold and stopping it from happening, then most of the companies working on Blue laser tech banned together and formed the Blu ray foundersd group to work together on blue specs until the DVD forum would allow serious HD talks. A bit later Toshiba created OAD (as a response to BD) and then “allowed” discussions on HDOM in the DVD forum, at that point the BD founders decided since the format advanced so much it did not make sense to fight it in the DVD forum (especially since until then the DVD forum was saying their job is DVD and not HD media). Then Toshiba brought AOD to the table and AOD kept on losing until two new members (Disney and MS) were brought into the board and Toshiba had enough votes.

| They already knew what it’s like to lose a format war when their superior BetaMax was supplanted by VHS. This time, the Blu-Ray Disc has gained a large amount of support in the corporate world. Hewlett Packard announced a computer with Blu-Ray capability. Apple and Dell have announced support. Even archrival, Panasonic, has invested in a player.

Panasonic was one of the original 9 in the BDF, as the BDF grew it eventually got renamed the BDA and the BDF became the

Blu-Ray claims a higher capacity per disc (25GB per layer versus HD DVD's 15GB), which is important for data storage applications such as backup, but for basic playback, not so much.

Why is it more important for Data then movies? How many movies are on single layer and a single DVD? Why were the MI on two disk HD DVD sets? If the disk could hold more, could they have put it on one disk?

HD DVD, is the choice of Toshiba, NEC Corporation, Microsoft, and Intel.

You missed Sanyo (they brought the Blue diod tech to HD DVD) – on the other hand they have been extremely silent on the subject

So how many Intel HD DVD players or movies have you seen?

As for NEC I know they had some drives on display, but I have not ever found it for sale, do you have a link to where I can buy one?


On November 29, 2004, four Hollywood studios (New Line Cinema, Paramount Pictures, Universal Studios and Warner Bros.) announced non-exclusive agreements to support HD DVD. Since that time, Paramount and Warner have chosen to release titles in both Blu-Ray Disc and HD DVD, while only Universal has since announced exclusive support for HD DVD.

True (well except for New Line, but it is owned by TW that also owns WB **). NL has finally decided to release on both. So later this year they announced one movie *
Currently Sony Pictures, MGM, Disney, and 20th Century Fox have all exclusively backed Blu-Ray.

You missed Lion’s Gate in the major studios, they might be the smallest and a relatively young but they are big enough (and have many well known “Hollywood” movies like Terminator) They are also more important then MGM In HD and in DVD*






note

Additionally, contrary to the seven world regions protocol dictated by Blu-Ray, HD DVD doesn't enforce region coding. This makes it easier to use discs from any country in the world.

BD has only 3 region codes not 7 as for HD DVD they decided to backdoore it. It is still on the table just not used yet so that guys like you can spread the FUD that BD has RC but HD DVD does not.


Both formats play back existing DVDs better than the $79 to $199 standard DVD players, so the battle for market share will largely be fought on which movies are available in either format. And, of course, prices will come down with commercialization.

Agree


* I am assuming you mean large Hollywood studios. Since there are many more BD exclusive mini studios and the international is different as well. Many international that bought the HD DVD BS have already started switching sides or at leas going neutral.


** it is funny you decided to make a neutral/HD DVD only category and a BD only category. It ios also funny how you decided to split TW in some of it's sub studios but not some of the BD only ones like Columbia, Tristar, Touchstone......
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Post 32 made on Monday August 6, 2007 at 10:22
DBrown
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Gee Anthony, what format are you in favor of?
Gee Anthony, what format are you in favor of?

"Perfect" simply means without the signal loss caused by making analog copies of analog video. The copy of a copy of a copy is worse than the original. With digital the copy of a copy of a copy is still the same.

It doesn't matter if there are 100k HD-DVD players out there or 300k HD-DVD players out there. The number is still large enough to justify having a HD-DVD copy of new releases made, just like the producers of "300" did. Yes, BluRay movies are selling faster than HD-DVD movies, but only because not every studio is producing all titles on both formats. I'm not denying the present. I'm proposing a future with both formats and all new (and old) movies being releases on both formats. It is not unreasonable. It is perhaps a bit unlikely. Either way, I want it.

On a side note, has anyone realized how HD movies are in a different package size than DVD movies? DVDs at least used the same height for their cases that VHS packages use. It means the same cabinets/shelves/racks that hold VHS tapes can hold DVD cases. I've got a precisely made wall unit that holds DVD and VHS tapes by gripping the top and bottom of each. Works great. HD-DVDs and BluRay cases do not fit. Too short. Fall out.
My point? The HD-DVD/BluRay folks have created a whole new market for media shelving by simply changing one dimension of the HD media case.

You don't have to agree, Anthony. I think I know where you stand. ;-)
Post 33 made on Monday August 6, 2007 at 20:57
Anthony
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Gee Anthony, what format are you in favor of?

All I want is high quality movies. I am also in favour of the truth and facts so it is annoying when I see people post BS on purpose to con others.

"Perfect" simply means without the signal loss caused by making analog copies of analog video. The copy of a copy of a copy is worse than the original. With digital the copy of a copy of a copy is still the same.

if that is what you meant then I missed what you meant by perfect, on the other hand it makes absolutely no sense with the rest of the paragraph

It doesn't matter if there are 100k HD-DVD players out there or 300k HD-DVD players out there. The number is still large enough to justify having a HD-DVD copy of new releases made, just like the producers of "300" did.

no it is not, just think of this, do you think more then 1M VHS players have been sold? Why have studios stopped releasing on VHS? Do you realise that way more then 1M Beta players were sold and that did not help it against VHS back in the day. The 100k or 300k or even if you want over 10M or 100M (like VHS) is only relevent if none of those people that bought HD DVD (or Beta or LD or VHS) also bought an alternative format and only if they refuse to buy movies not released in any other format.

Yes, BluRay movies are selling faster than HD-DVD movies, but only because not every studio is producing all titles on both formats.

that makes 0 sense. Every dual format movie has sold more on BD then HD DVD. The reason BD outsells HD DVD in movies each and every weak is simply that there are more BD players and a larger market. How can you blame studio releases when a week when 0 new BDs came out it beat HD DVD 60:40? That shows that unless there is an incredible jump in HD DVD players out there (like 4-5x what ity is now in a matter of a few weeks) HD DVD does not have a chance to come close to matching BD.

My point? The HD-DVD/BluRay folks have created a whole new market for media shelving by simply changing one dimension of the HD media case.

I think it was for two reasons

1) to help differentiate the movies more ( Two of the stores I use have the DVD/BD and HD DVD new releases together, I can see the new BDs walking right in for the most part)

2) I am guessing smaller casses= less plastic= a bit cheaper

You don't have to agree, Anthony. I think I know where you stand. ;-)

I agree, if someone made shelving for the exact size of DVDs that they will need to buy new shelves :)
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Post 34 made on Monday August 6, 2007 at 23:33
DBrown
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It doesn't matter if there are 100k HD-DVD players out there or 300k HD-DVD players out there. The number is still large enough to justify having a HD-DVD copy of new releases made, just like the producers of "300" did.
no it is not, just think of this, do you think more then 1M VHS
players have been sold? Why have studios stopped releasing on
VHS?

That's the most stupid analogy I've ever read. Now that most people have DVD players, no one is interested in VHS. That's why. VHS has been outdated the same way cassette tapes were outdated by CDs. Pay attention.
Do you realise that way more then 1M Beta players were
sold and that did not help it against VHS back in the day. The
100k or 300k or even if you want over 10M or 100M (like VHS) | is only relevent if none of those people that bought HD DVD (or | Beta or LD or VHS) also bought an alternative format and only if
they refuse to buy movies not released in any other format.

VHS has been replaced by DVDs, which are far easier to produce, far better in quality, and more profitable than VHS tapes. VHS and Beta tapes are two different sizes, requiring two different mechanisms. I believe some think the reason VHS won is because the porn industry opted for VHS. (BTW, the porn industry has also opted to support HD-DVD). But once a DVD/HD-DVD/or BluRay movie is mastered, the ones sold are stamped out. VHS and Betamax had to be written to different tapes, on different machines. Disks are stamped. Your parallel argument is irrelivent. Both HD formats can survive because once each is mastered, the mass production steps are identical, and can even take place on the same stamping machine. Selling at $20 to $30 each 300,000 additional sales cost relatively little to produce yet yield considerable profit. Like I said, the smart companies are already producing both formats. Why ignore any part of the digital disk pie? The hard part was making the movies (creating and capturing all the footage then editing). Outputting an SD (DVD) or HD version is easy. Changing them so that what's on each format is slightly different is (relatively) trivial. Everything after that is profit.

You can type your "no it is not" arguments all day long, Anthony. Typing it doesn't make it true, logical, or relevant. How about we wait and see? When Toshiba states it will no longer make HD-DVD players due to the lack of any buyers or profit, I'll throw in the towel.
Post 35 made on Tuesday August 7, 2007 at 00:04
Anthony
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That's the most stupid analogy I've ever read. Now that most people have DVD players, no one is interested in VHS. That's why.

so when those few people that bought HD DVD are not interstyed in HD DVD any more why do you think how many players are out there today will matter? If over 100M VHS players don't matter because most people eventually also bought a DVD player why do you think less then 1M people that bought HD DVD will stay steadfast and not buy a movie ewxcept if it is on HD DVD?

I believe some think the reason VHS won is because the porn industry opted for VHS.

the reason is not important, the point is guys,like my Dad bought a Beta player and then eventually a VHS player because it did not make sense to stick with Beta, it was a dead format. The same will happen with HD DVD except much faster because there is only a small fraction of the players

(BTW, the porn industry has also opted to support HD-DVD).

not at all, just do a search there have been several BD titles available for some time. Like most HD DVD supporters you have most (if not all) your facts wrong.

VHS and Betamax had to be written to different tapes, on different machines. Disks are stamped. Your parallel argument is irrelivent. Both HD formats can survive because once each is mastered, the mass production steps are identical, and can even take place on the same stamping machine.

not at all. LIke we discussed before you need to make a BD master and a totaly different HD DVD master. Yes BD/HD DVD are stamped while VHS/Beta were copied but a studio needs to make two masters for each format that are then used to create the coppies be it mechanical or not.

Selling at $20 to $30 each 300,000 additional sales cost relatively little to produce yet yield considerable profit

do you really think that for every HD DVD player one copy of the movie will be sold? Does that even remotely make sense to you? It is funny since no movie has even sold to 1/3 of the HD DVD players out there. I am sure a studio would be happy if it sold 50k HD DVD copies.

also do you really think that a studio makes 20-30$ profit? The store will make close to 1/2 of our cost, then you add the replicator, the distributor...... and that 30$ does not leave much to the studio. If creating the content needs over 100k (which from friends that work in the biz , it does) then there is very little at these numbers that are profits to the studio.

Why ignore any part of the digital disk pie?

because you are not ignoring any part of the pie. let's assume that a studio would make some money (and not loose money because costs>revenue) the person with an HD DVD player might buy the BD (because he has both, like the guy with a VCR and a DVD player) then the other person might buy the DVD (do you like James Bond? Did you buy Casino Royal?) and what is left is very very small. Also the faster HD DVD dies the faster the person with only HD DVD buys a BD player and now they can buy that movie that they did not earlier. And when they do buy it, it cost the studio just the replication and distribution instead of a high mastering cost to HD DVD.
...
Post 36 made on Tuesday August 7, 2007 at 02:19
WhiteVan Lifestyle
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Anthony,
I made my earlier post to see what kind of response it would get. This subject seems to get a lot of attention. I’ve read most of what you said in your reply in another forum. For the most part you are right. The media hype and background noise on this subject is so loud it’s really hard to make any kind of judgment call. It’s good to get people amp’d up on the subject. I think we learn more from the wide array of replies then from any printed material.

Thanks
Safe 'n Sound Central Coast CA www.mysafensound.com [Link: facebook.com]
Post 37 made on Wednesday August 8, 2007 at 15:56
2nd rick
Super Member
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On August 5, 2007 at 20:42, Anthony said...
Why do you think all year you have not
heard any real announcement about HD DVD gaining support?

There is a Big Box store announcement coming which will support HD-DVD and the tables will begin to tilt back the other way.
Black Friday will see an HD-DVD player (likely a no-name Big Box store house brand) at at half or less of the cost of what we see today, and that will pull through a LOT of media purchases....

I am not saying that HD-DVD will win, but certainly neither one is facing exinction anytime soon.

Also, I have a client/friend who owns both and admits that the PQ (on his Ken Whitcomb calibrated Runco FP) is indistiguishable on most films which have been released in both formats.

He notes that the real-time chapter navigation, menu access, etc. with the film running are VASTLY superior on HD-DVD, and that the Java implementation which was supposed to be BDs answer has been a flop so far...
Rick Murphy
Troy, MI
Post 38 made on Wednesday August 8, 2007 at 20:12
Anthony
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There is a Big Box store announcement coming which will support HD-DVD and the tables will begin to tilt back the other way.

can we wait for actual announcements? Toshiba reps and other BS spreaders had told us in 2005 to wait about the big announcement on for the date the first player will ship latter that year, not to mention that they would add HD DVD45. At CES 2006 we were told to wait about the big announcements when Sanyo will start shipping a player, the Chinese HD DVD players will start shipping and when HD DVD 45 will come out. At CES 2007 and after we have been hearing about the big announcements from cheap Chinese manufacturers, fro 51GB HD DVD to be added to the spec.....

The more time passes the more big announcements we should be waiting for and they never seam to come.

Also, I have a client/friend who owns both and admits that the PQ (on his Ken Whitcomb calibrated Runco FP) is indistinguishable on most films which have been released in both formats.

considering Warner has decide to use the exact same encoding and they released most of the dual runs, obviously on most titles on both the PQ is the same. The BDs are gimped to HD DVD specs.

He notes that the real-time chapter navigation, menu access, etc. with the film running are VASTLY superior on HD-DVD, and that the Java implementation which was supposed to be BDs answer has been a flop so far...

Now every BD movie (where I forgot to switch to lossless before it started or when I had a few extra minutes at the end and decided to see what extras are ther to swatch bloopers or deleted scenes) has had in movie menu access as well as in movie real time scene selection.

Even though I don’t feel like getting into it at which is better, can you answer me this. When you sit down to watch a movie how much time do you spend during the movie in the menu and do you tend to sit down and watch the movie or do you randomly mix up the chapters because it is more interesting that way.

...
Post 39 made on Friday August 31, 2007 at 19:58
bookaroni
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458
On August 8, 2007 at 15:56, 2nd rick said...
There is a Big Box store announcement coming which will
support HD-DVD and the tables will begin to tilt back
the other way.
Black Friday will see an HD-DVD player (likely a no-name
Big Box store house brand) at at half or less of the cost
of what we see today, and that will pull through a LOT
of media purchases....

I am not saying that HD-DVD will win, but certainly neither
one is facing exinction anytime soon.

Also, I have a client/friend who owns both and admits
that the PQ (on his Ken Whitcomb calibrated Runco FP)
is indistiguishable on most films which have been released
in both formats.

He notes that the real-time chapter navigation, menu access,
etc. with the film running are VASTLY superior on HD-DVD,
and that the Java implementation which was supposed to
be BDs answer has been a flop so far...

Well, the announcement has been made. Chinese players will soon hit Wal-Mart @ about $149. At least that is the price everyone is guessing.

On the Blu-Ray side Disney has announced National Treasure is coming out on BD. It will be the first BD-Live title. Finding Nemo and Chronicles of Narnia will both feature Full PiP bonus features.
The problem with both of these movies is no player to access the features. The best guess for PIP is 2nd quarter 2008 when the Denon is scheduled to be available. It was scheduled for this fall but...
BD Live won't be available till someone makes a Profile 2 player.
That means that BD will have gone close to 2 years before actually getting a full spec player into the marketplace.
And if you want to see how problematic BD-Java can be check this out:
[Link: preview.tinyurl.com]

Yes, the Java implementation seems to be a flop for sure.
Post 40 made on Monday September 3, 2007 at 12:13
Anthony
Ultimate Member
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Well, the announcement has been made. Chinese players will soon hit Wal-Mart @ about $149. At least that is the price everyone is guessing.

Venturer is a Canadian company, but these like all the Toshiba HD DVD players and some BD players (including the PS3) are manufactured in China. Wal-Mart does offer many Venturer products but there has been no official anouncement.


That means that BD will have gone close to 2 years before actually getting a full spec player into the marketplace.

and how long before there is a full featured HD DVD player? even Toshibas 3d generation that is not out yet don't fully support everything HD DVD has in the books, so it will most likely not be before the 4th generation (considering that there are no other original designs out there)


Yes, the Java implementation seems to be a flop for sure.

if that is a problem then you must not have bought any HD DVDs considering there have been a few that have required FW upgrades on the players, there are even some that need to be boiled in order to work.
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