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Will Blu-Ray win out over HD-DVD?
This thread has 39 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 30.
Post 16 made on Saturday July 28, 2007 at 18:26
raymasten
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WHEN WAL-MART RELEASES THE CHINA MADE HD-DVD PLAYER FOR UNDER $200.00 THE RACE WILL BE OVER.
RAY MASTEN
Post 17 made on Sunday July 29, 2007 at 11:25
Anthony
Ultimate Member
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raymasten:

a) stop using all CAPS it makes you look like an idot
b) stop saying stupid stuff, it makes you look like an idiot :)

here is why iwhat you said IS stupid

1) when it was announced it was for a 300$ player
2) the deal was a misstranslation of a Chinese anouncement made by FU YAN
3) Both Walmart and FU YAN have said there is no such deal since then
4) you can already buy a Toshiba HD DVD player for 200$ and there are not enough dumb people to buy that one, why would a Chinese player do any better?
5) right now Walmart is carrying more BD players then HD DVD
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Post 18 made on Wednesday August 1, 2007 at 23:40
Mitch57
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Why do I get the distinct impression that Blu-Ray is favored over HD-DVD in several posts on this and other forums? Particularly by one individual.

I personally am not a fan of either format. Until there is an obvious winner (obvious meaning the other format stops production) or a true high quality dual format player becomes available I will not purchase either.

I made that mistake when I bought a Sony Beta player way back when. Now I have about 150 Beta tapes sitting in the attic collecting dust.
Post 19 made on Thursday August 2, 2007 at 12:51
DBrown
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HD-DVD has now won. Everyone can now sell/throw out their BluRay players. Also, don't bother buying any new BluRay movies even if you have a BluRay player. Just wait, and as the market dwindles they'll all eventually get moved to the discount bin, where VHS movies can be found now.

How do I know? I just do. Trust me. ;-)

Of course HD-DVD also will eventually be obsololete. At some point our TVs will all have a very high speed internet connection, and all content will be downloaded off the internet. We'll all have the new holographic memory with literally infinite storage space, so whatever we download we can keep in our TV indefinitely..
Post 20 made on Thursday August 2, 2007 at 22:37
audioslayve
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As far as disc space, and the technical aspect between the two...

Which disc can hold more information?



audioslayve
The optimist claims the glass is half full; the pessimist claims it is half empty. An engineer observes that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

Ps, you can't fix stupid
Post 21 made on Friday August 3, 2007 at 11:46
bookaroni
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458
The Blu-Ray dis holds more information. Not sure if they have used it to their advantage yet though.
Post 22 made on Friday August 3, 2007 at 13:55
audioslayve
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Well there you have it.. fidelity will eventually take the lead.


audioslayve
The optimist claims the glass is half full; the pessimist claims it is half empty. An engineer observes that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

Ps, you can't fix stupid
Post 23 made on Friday August 3, 2007 at 16:31
DTRAIN
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you know something guys i feel that they will co-exist for awhile since niether one has jumped that far ahead of each other BLU-RAY is leading now because of more ce products but HD-DVD is hanging on because they have the MATRIX and coming soon they will have the complete STAR TREK tv series. but my guess is that whom ever gets the STAR WARS movies will be the winner.what do yall think?
i dont need nothing but this and maybe this,and that....(the jerk)
Post 24 made on Friday August 3, 2007 at 18:58
bookaroni
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On August 3, 2007 at 16:31, DTRAIN said...
you know something guys i feel that they will co-exist
for awhile since niether one has jumped that far ahead
of each other BLU-RAY is leading now because of more ce
products but HD-DVD is hanging on because they have the
MATRIX and coming soon they will have the complete STAR
TREK tv series. but my guess is that whom ever gets the
STAR WARS movies will be the winner.what do yall think?

I doubt any particular release will sway the public enough to cause a format to die. And yes, both formats will co-exist for at least the next couple of years.
Another thing to think about is neither format is making anyone huge amounts of money yet. Can you say niche market?
Post 25 made on Friday August 3, 2007 at 20:53
DBrown
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I'm about to give up and go looking for a HD VCR. Anyone know where I can rent or buy HD VHS movies? Oh wait, my Vista media center PC records HDTV shows. Anyone know where I can download current releases in HD? On a third thought, I might buy an HD Video camera. What media do those use, and can I buy/rent movies on THAT media? On a fourth thought, I'm sure I've seen some web sites offering portable HD PVRs you can carry around with HD content, and will output that content to your HDTV somehow.

My point? I think it's best for the industry to offer all content in all formats. If it's digital, it's not hard to make perfect copies to multiple media formats at the same time. Even if HD-DVD is "behind", there are still enough already sold to make for a viable market for media producers. Yes, it's irritating that there are two formats that are so close in features that the market gets confused about them. How about all future players agreeing to make their decks read both formats with all features of each format fully enabled? Oh yea, and sell these decks everywhere for about $99.
Post 26 made on Saturday August 4, 2007 at 10:47
Anthony
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Which disc can hold more information?

disk sizes are


HD DVD SL 15GB, DL 30GB
BD SL 25GB, DL 50GB

or BD has 67% more capacity

HD DVD also has a max of 30.24mbps A/V while BD has a max of 48mbps (HD DVD has a 1x spin rate while BD is speced at 1.5x) which limits the quyality of video or audio HD DVD can transmit
...
Post 27 made on Saturday August 4, 2007 at 11:33
Anthony
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I'm about to give up and go looking for a HD VCR.

it is known as D-VHS

My point? I think it's best for the industry to offer all content in all formats.

no there is not

If it's digital, it's not hard to make perfect copies to multiple media formats at the same time.

not at all. If someone makes a video that has peaks of 37mbps, then that will not work on HD DVD, the studio will need to redo all the work to have an HD DVD movie. On the other hand a studio could make a bad transfer at lower bitrate to work on both but why should the BD be gimped to HD DVD specs?

Even at that the specs of both formats are different so there is no "perfect" copies. BD and HD DVD use the same video codecs a bit differently. BD can do DD@640mbps HD DVD can only do DD@480, DD+ and DTHD are different on BD and HD DVD. On HD DVD the DD core is incorporated in the DTHD and DD+, on BD they are not, so their structure is a bit different.

Even if HD-DVD is "behind", there are still enough already sold to make for a viable market for media producers.

right now there is not enough to guarantee viability for any format. Beta had sold many tens of millions, how does that compare to HD DVD which is no where 1m? VHS was king at some time with way over 100M sold, and studios today are not releasing on it. What you are missing is that you need WAY more people and all of those people need to have no other way to buy (or rent) the movies. If every person with a VCR also has a DVD player a studiop loses nothing by only putting out DVD, The same here if most of the HD DVD owners have BD then they can buy (or rent) the BD and the rest the DVD, a studio loses nothing.

How about all future players agreeing to make their decks read both formats with all features of each format fully enabled? Oh yea, and sell these decks everywhere for about $99.

because that is illogical. Supporting both greatly increases the price. There are a lot more royalties to pay, you also need a much more complicated machine.

Why do you think the dual format players are much more expensive then one of each?

You are also missing the obvious even if most players are dual, studios have no wish to support two disk formats and neither do retailers. Even if dual players do become the norm studios will release the movies on the format that has more single format players and that is and will be BD, so you will most likely be just as screwed for having gotten coned into buying an HD DVD player


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Post 28 made on Saturday August 4, 2007 at 14:31
DBrown
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It used to be that DVD players were $400 or more, and could only play DVDs and CDs if lucky. Now they are available for $20 some places, and most can play CDs, data disks with an assortment of music and picture media formats, and also an assortment of recordable DVD and CD media types. I have no doubt that the HD formats will also move down in price (they already are) and move up in availability (they already are). Both formats use blue lasers. More than one company has figured out how to make one drive read both. The electronics will get more compact and more efficient and less expensive. Licensing will get cheaper. How do I know? The same thing has happened with all previous electronic devices. TV tuners used to be about the size of a pack of cards. Now you can fit both NTSC and ATSC tuners on a USB thumb drive about the size of a pack of gum. Some HDTVs have DVD players built into them. I expect that within 2 years the new models will have HD drives of one sort format or another built in, and for the same prices you pay for an HDTV/DVD combo.

All it takes is looking back Anthony, and a little imagination. Yes, the data burnt to each format is different, and had to have time spent on it to make it unique. But the same thing happens today within the DVD production business. You'll find basic releases, Director's cuts, and several other variations of each movie released. It's no harder to press HD-DVDs and BluRay disks of the same movie than it is to create and press DVD and different DVD mixes of the same movies. There is no illogic involved. There are already many movies being released in three formats, and you can bet those make more money for the producers than any movie only released in one HD format. For even if there were only 100,000 HD-DVD players out there it would still be a profitable market for content producers. [Link: engadget.com]
Post 29 made on Sunday August 5, 2007 at 01:25
WhiteVan Lifestyle
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On February 24, 2007 at 12:52, Anthony said...
because
1) you are wrong on Sony's track record
2) BD is a BDA format and not a Sony
3) all of the CE electronics world is backing BD with
players from most majore CE companies, Philips, Sony,
Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung.... while thye only one willing
to waste money on HD DVD is Toshiba
4) most studios support BD (many exclusively) out of the
big 8

-- a) Exclusive : Disney, Fox, Sony,LG, MGM
-- b) none exclusively (WB, Paramount)
while only one studio supports HD DVD Universal
5) many, many more BD players have been sold
6) many more BD movies are comming ut on a regular basis
7) BD movies are way outselling HD DVD movies

FACT:
When DVDs were less than ten years old, SONY developed Blu-Ray in 2002 as a next generation data and video storage format alternative to DVD. They already knew what itís like to lose a format war when their superior BetaMax was supplanted by VHS. This time, the Blu-Ray Disc has gained a large amount of support in the corporate world. Hewlett Packard announced a computer with Blu-Ray capability. Apple and Dell have announced support. Even archrival, Panasonic, has invested in a player.

Blu-Ray claims a higher capacity per disc (25GB per layer versus HD DVD's 15GB), which is important for data storage applications such as backup, but for basic playback, not so much.

HD DVD, is the choice of Toshiba, NEC Corporation, Microsoft, and Intel.

On November 29, 2004, four Hollywood studios (New Line Cinema, Paramount Pictures, Universal Studios and Warner Bros.) announced non-exclusive agreements to support HD DVD. Since that time, Paramount and Warner have chosen to release titles in both Blu-Ray Disc and HD DVD, while only Universal has since announced exclusive support for HD DVD. Currently Sony Pictures, MGM, Disney, and 20th Century Fox have all exclusively backed Blu-Ray. Additionally, contrary to the seven world regions protocol dictated by Blu-Ray, HD DVD doesn't enforce region coding. This makes it easier to use discs from any country in the world.

Both formats play back existing DVDs better than the $79 to $199 standard DVD players, so the battle for market share will largely be fought on which movies are available in either format. And, of course, prices will come down with commercialization.
Safe 'n Sound Central Coast CA www.mysafensound.com [Link: facebook.com]
Post 30 made on Sunday August 5, 2007 at 20:42
Anthony
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It used to be that DVD players were $400 or more, and could only play DVDs and CDs if lucky

actually in 97 DVD players started off at 1000$ (just like BD players)

Both formats use blue lasers

yes and DVD and CD use different wavelengths :)

I have no doubt that the HD formats will also move down in price (they already are) and move up in availability (they already are).

agree 100%

More than one company has figured out how to make one drive read both.

and their players cost MUCH more then any single format player.

The electronics will get more compact and more efficient and less expensive

agree, but does it make any sense that it will be cheaper then a single format player?

Yes, the data burnt to each format is different, and had to have time spent on it to make it unique. But the same thing happens today within the DVD production business. You'll find basic releases, Director's cuts, and several other variations of each movie released.

agree, but that is not what you said. Or do you disagree that you said ,"If it's digital, it's not hard to make perfect copies to multiple media formats" is a Director's Cut a perfect copy of a basic release or an other variation?

The issue is that you are talking about the same version of the movie, I bought LOTR TE when it came out and then EE when it came out, the EE did cost the studio something more but they also made a lot of money, I also (if it existed) did not buy the VHS because I already had the movie. If everyone has a BD player and 70% have an HD DVD player and a studio releases a title on both, the people that have BD only and want the movie will buy the BD, if someone owns both then he can buy either the BD or HD DVD (let's pretend that the BD sold 3M and the HD DVD 2M) If that studio only released n BD they would still sell the same number of disks (in this example 5M) the only difference is that it would be in one format and cost them less to produce and manage. The issue is that there are very few (if any) that will buy the same movie on BD and HD DVD, so it is one sale to someone that wants it.

PS Just so that you know, the 100k is way out of date now the last number for Toshiba is 180k (might as well use up to date numbers) this will also be stand alone players (add-on not included) I am sure that in total the numbers must be a bit more then 300k (we don't have good add-on numbers, the last confirmed numbers were around 90k in Dec from NPD- note that unlike Neilsen NPD augments it's numbers for the assumed market that they don't cover). My assumption of a bit over 300k is based on the assumption that
A) more add-ons must have sold since then
B) Since the Toshiba player came very close to the add-on's price and that the 360 is a much worst solution (problems with 360s braking too easily, some disks having issues on the 360 and that the 360 can't do good audio)

The issue is that even though the stand alone players* (i.e. exclude PC that is almost nothing, PS3 -that exclude most BD players and add-on -that excludes around 1/2 the HD DVD players) the BD movies are selling way better then HD DVD. Homemediamagazine has the weekly, SI and YTD every week.

You can see them on-line by going to[Link: nxtbook.com]hom080507 where 080507 is the date the magazine is published (i.e. it comes outy on Sunday's and this is for Today 08/05/2007). You can see that at no time this year was it ever 50/50 even on a week when BD did not release a movie or there were tons of HD DVDs and only a few BDs BD outsold them by a lot. Every qurter they have a special HD section, it will be interesting to see how much farther behind HD DVD has fallen.

What you are missing is that for a format to do well it needs people to beleive in it. It needs studios and CEs to beleive in it. But they don't and can't if HD DVD is losing ground and losing it fast. Why do you think Denon went Blu? why do you think many mini studios have gone BD, Why do you think places like Target and BlockBuster are pushing BD. Why do you think all year you have not heard any real anouncement about HD DVD gaining support? | It used to be that DVD players were $400 or more, and could only play DVDs and CDs if lucky

actually in 97 DVD players started off at 1000$ (just like BD players)

Both formats use blue lasers

yes and DVD and CD use different wavelengths :)

I have no doubt that the HD formats will also move down in price (they already are) and move up in availability (they already are).

agree 100%

More than one company has figured out how to make one drive read both.

and their players cost MUCH more then any single format player.

The electronics will get more compact and more efficient and less expensive

agree, but does it make any sense that it will be cheaper then a single format player?

Yes, the data burnt to each format is different, and had to have time spent on it to make it unique. But the same thing happens today within the DVD production business. You'll find basic releases, Director's cuts, and several other variations of each movie released.

agree, but that is not what you said. Or do you dissagree that you said ,"If it's digital, it's not hard to make perfect copies to multiple media formats" is a Director's Cut a perfect copy of a basic release or an other variation?

The issue is that you are talking about the same version of the movie, I bought LOTR TE when it came out and then EE whenb oit came out, the EE did cost the studio something more but they also made a lot of money, I also (if it existed) did not buy the VHS because I already had the movie. If everyone has a BD player and 70% have an HD DVD player and a studio releases a title on both, the people that have BD only and want the movie will buy the BD, if someone owns both then he can buy either the BD or HD DVD (let's pretend that the BD sold 3M and the HD DVD 2M) If that studio only released n BD they would still sell the same number of disks (in this example 5M) the only difference is that it would be in one format and cost them less to produce and manage. The issue is that there are very few (if any) that will buy the same movie on BD and HD DVD, so it is one sale to someone that wants it.

PS Just so that you know, the 100k is way out of date now the last number for Toshiba is 180k (might as well use up to date numbers) this will also be stand alone players (add-on not included) I am sure that in total the numbers must be a bit more then 300k (we don't have good add-on numbers, the last confirmed numbers were around 90k in Dec from NPD- note that unlike Neilsen NPD augments it's numbers for the assumed market that they don't cover). My assumption of a bit over 300k is based on the assumption that
A) more add-ons must have sold since then
B) Since the Toshiba player came very close to the add-on's price and that the 360 is a much worst solution (problems with 360s braking too easily, some disks having issues on the 360 and that the 360 can't do good audio)

The issue is that even though the stand alone players* (i.e. exclude PC that is almost nothing, PS3 -that exclude most BD players and add-on -that excludes around 1/2 the HD DVD players) the BD movies are selling way better then HD DVD. Homemediamagazine has the weekly, SI and YTD every week.

You can see them on-line by going to[Link: nxtbook.com]hom080507 where 080507 is the date the magazine is published (i.e. it comes outy on Sunday's and this is for Today 08/05/2007). You can see that at no time this year was it ever 50/50 even on a week when BD did not release a movie or there were tons of HD DVDs and only a few BDs BD outsold them by a lot. Every qurter they have a special HD section, it will be interesting to see how much farther behind HD DVD has fallen.

What you are missing is that for a format to do well it needs people to believe in it. It needs studios and CEs to believe in it. But they don't and can't if HD DVD is losing ground and losing it fast. Why do you think Denon went Blu? why do you think many mini studios have gone BD, Why do you think places like Target and BlockBuster are pushing BD. Why do you think all year you have not heard any real announcement about HD DVD gaining support?

I tried to warn you not to trust bookaroni but you decide to take his advice. I could not do anything more.
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