I've had several recent jobs with two displays in one area and speakers for the second TV driven off the AVR zone 2.

This creates a few problems:

1. Zone 2 Audio not in sync with Main zone (Denon AVR)
2. Issues with how to easily control volume between both zones

With the Denon AVRs I've never been able to overcome the Zone2 audio sync issue.  Using the video game mode helps some, but doesn't eliminate the problem.

Here's something I came up with that is working very well for this scenario:  

Family Room with 55" TV and 5.1 audio driven from AVR Main Zone open to a Kitchen with 46" TV and in-ceiling speakers driven from AVR Zone 2.

The solution was to use an Audio Control LC6i which is a 6-Channel line output converter with summing:
[Link: audiocontrol.com]

This allowed me to take the speaker level outputs from the AVR Main Zone and convert them back to line level (with all channels summed into stereo left & right) to feed back into an input for Zone 2.

This solves a few problems:

1. Eliminates audio sync problem between zones
2. Allows the Zone2 volume to automatically ramp up & down with the main zone keeping volume in sync between both zones

This was accomplished by setting the jumpers on the LC6i to sum the inputs and wired in this fashion:

• Center channel wired into both Left & Right channels on Main input of LC6i
• Front Left & Right channels wired into Channel 2 input on LC6i
• Rear surround channels wired into Channel 3 input on LC6i

In this configuration, the output of the LC6i provides a stereo left & right output that combines all 5 surround sound channels so no content is lost.  This line-level output is then connected to an analog input on the AVR and Zone2 is set to always select this input.

The end result is that the ZONE2 speakers in the Kitchen are in sync with audio in the Family Room (Main Zone) and when you increase, decrease or mute the volume in the Family Room, the Kitchen speakers will also ramp up or down (or mute) too. 

This was ideal for this situation because both rooms are very open to each other and it would have been impossible to keep the volume levels matched during use by trying to manually adjust the Main Zone & Zone 2 volume all the time using the remote.

One potential problem with this setup is that LFE isn't fed into Zone 2 so bass in the Zone2 speakers could be lacking.  At this job, the in-wall sub in the Family Room provides enough bass in both rooms so it's not an issue.

Here's a photo showing the TV locations:


Rack was REALLY full already so had to mount the LC6i on the side:


Close up of LC6i and wiring:


Zone 2 page on MX-980 allows customer to fine tune Kitchen volume in relation to Main Family Room, mute the Kitchen, or turn the TV on/off.  By default, the Kitchen TV always turns on with the Family Room TV.

Variables track the current activity, so the "Return" button takes you back to the last page you were on (wish URC could do this by default like RTI).

The other nice thing about this is that your sources would not need analog connections. A huge bonus with ATV in the mix.

I've been thinking of trying this with an AVR That has 7.1 pre outs. Just route L/R pre-out into Zone 2. The disadvantage would be the main zone DSP would have to be All Channel Stereo, but depending on usage it could be fine.

Very clever idea!

Yes... forgot to mention that.  No analog audio connections needed from each source for Zone2 and also eliminated the need for the D/A converter for AppleTV.

Not having all those pesky analog cables and converters also helped clean up the small rack!

This is pure genius.


Not only fewer cables, as mentioned, but instant tracking of zone 2 with zone 1. And you could still connect other sources directly to zone 2 to play different things in the second zone.


This product is designed for power amp signals to be summed. Is there a similar device (other than a classic mixer) already made that accepts line level signals? It would be genius to use that, too!

Why would the main zone have to be in All Channel Stereo? In thinking about this, we come up against the idea that surround is a distribution of the existing signals to several zones -- summing them should give decent stereo. Of course, if you set your surround to replicate the Frankfurt Airport, a summed sound would just be so much echo. But then, it's just so much echo when the channels are separated! I don't see any harm in combining DSP channels for Zone 2.

Still, genius.

No. Genius.

Ernie, I think iimig stated the main zone would need to be in all channel stereo because if you just took left & right out of the 5.1 or 7.1 pre-outs and put them into Zone2, you'd be missing all the dialog (center channel). 

Putting the main zone into all channel stereo solves this problem, but in my case the main zone will always by in surround sound mode for video sources.

I had a Niles 2-channel speaker to line level adapter that I did some testing with, but it just wasn't suitable because all the center channel info was missing in Zone2.  Some searching lead me to the Audio Control piece.

I'm not aware of a line-level combiner, but as you mentioned any mixer could provide this functionality.  Several manufactures make 1U mixers that would do the job.

If you mix the line level out of the Main Zone pre-outs and then feed back into an input for Zone2 you've solved the audio delay and source tracking issues, but you'll still have independent Zone2 volume which might be desirable for some situations.

For this job using the speaker level combiner does the trick by automatically keeping the volume in both zones synced which is ideal.  It's such a simple thing, but just being able to press volume up/down/mute on the remote and have both zones respond is really cool.

This is one of those silly CI things that a customer could never imagine how difficult it is to actually achieve.  I'm not even sure why something like this is still so difficult to accomplish...

This is great for this specific solution but wouldn't work in true Zone 2 areas and still has the draw back of a Master and Slave volume control setup for the Kitchen. 

I've been trying to find a fix for a project that is using 5.1 AVR zone with 5 zones of DA. The AVR zone, even in Stereo DIRECT still has a delay. 

I was thinking he was commenting on the way you had set it up, whee you use the center channel information. Of course -- if he chooses to wire this so the center channel is not connected, then he has to put the system into a mode where there is no center channel. Given your solution, I don't see why anyone would do that. It's like you saying that it's easy to balance a motorcycle if you use three wheels, and he says that it's not so easy if you only use two wheels. He's not talking about your implementation, as I see it.


It'd be a good idea to come up with a cheap six-channel or so mixer. I've got one that would work just great for this: the portable battery-powered Sony MX-12 from 1971 or so. Two inputs can be made mono, the others left in stereo, so center could be added and the other four keep their leftness and rightness. You can't use this with 7.1, though. I'm sure someone has made one since then!


Well, not exactly. Just as having two faucets on a hose allows you to turn DOWN both of them, if zone 1 is turned down, you can't turn zone 2 way up. For that you need to go back to the old analog non-synced way of doing things.


Absolutely and definitely. I said "genius" more than once!

And you can still connect analog cables so other sources, or even this one, can be played in other zones with total independent volume control.


Lack of foresight on the part of manufacturers, or lack of willingness to cause the price to increase by adding a second D-A converter. We'd have no problem with zone 2 if every AVR had a second a D-A that would allow us to get a synced, two-channel mixdown of each digital input.

the easy solution would normally be to just use any yamaha 2 zone receiver (but does not resolve your desire to ramp with main zone and zone 2 with a single IR command AND still have a zone 2 override); If you don't care about the override; Tape/VCR out to an unused input works well; as does zone B.


Another way to jerry rig this if, as you've stated if you want them to ramp up/down - make sure its capable of zone B and then run an outboard auto switching amp with 2 inputs; one as a high to low level adapter off speaker B set as the primary source, and then the zone 2 line level as as your override...if you have a Yamaha RXA2010; you just need an auto switching amp/speaker selector.

Very good idea. However, all you really need is something like this; [Link: cypconverters.com.au] between the zone two out and an external amplifier this way you can perfectly match zone 2 with the main zone even if the main zone is in full surround mode.  You just have to remember that it is the main zone that is lagging behind zone 2 because of processing, so if you match the delay coming out of zone two you are good to go.

You can also run out of the main LF /RF pre outs and right back into a pair of analog inputs that will never be used by the main zone so as to avoid a nasty feed back loop. then select that input for zone two playback using the internal back channel amplifiers. Which of course will only work if you are running 5.1 or less, however your zone 2 line outputs will in either case be in sync with the mains at this point.

:-)

But if you're using 5.1 and only connect the left and right channels, how do you get the center channel info into zone 2?

[Link: motron.com]

Um.. you are using the zone 2 output of the receiver which is only 2 channel stereo.

Yes, of course, I saw that. But I'm talking about center channel INFORMATION, not a third channel.  Read this again and see if I still don't make sense --


That looks perfectly right, except that in any surround mode with a center channel, the main LF/RF (LF here means left front, not low frequency) pre outs will not have any center channel information; then


If you're running stereo, this will work.  If you're running multichannel stereo, this will work, but maybe not quite as well. If you're running 5.1: that means that center channel information comes from a digital signal as a totally separate signal, so the center channel information will not be present on the main left and right channel pre outs.  That's what I was asking about.


  :- ) indeed

Thanks guys...

This room is using a AVR-2313CI that doesn't have pre-outs from the Main zone (only record outs that are fixed), so I needed the speaker > line level converter to keep volume in both rooms synced and this also resolved the audio sync issue nicely.

I'm aware of the audio delay units, but once again, this would have only resolved the audio sync issue and not solved keeping the volume in both zones in sync.

I originally thought about using an external auto switching amp like Bryan suggested, but really didn't have room in this rack.  The Audio control piece was also really inexpensive (and small).  It cost about the same as the GefenTV AD converter that I originally had in place for the AppleTV and was able to remove.


Bryan - You mentioned ramping volume in both zones by issuing both IR commands. I've never tried this and just discounted it as probably not feasible. Seems like if you used a macro to send both Z1 & Z2 volume commands that it would eventually get out of sync and would probably also make volume commands sluggish.  Also not sure how this would work when holding the button to repeat the command?  Does this actually work?

Like most things CI, there's more than one way to skin the cat.  This was the simplest, least expensive and smallest solution I could come up with to accomplish exactly what I needed for this job and it's working perfectly so thought I'd share.

Most of the post was about using Zone 2 rather than the OPs method. The pre out l&r statement was just an alternative to the OPs speaker level converter piece which yes you would want to run center through as well. But his post was still about using Z2 rather than the main zone.