I've sold my Pronto after a couple of weeks of using it and I thought I should share with all of you my reasons (at least because some of you have helped me very kindly and I feel I owe you this). I know most of you won't agree with me, especially my friend Diego ;-) but it's just my opinion.

1. Maybe my hand is too small but I can't use the Pronto with just one hand. If I use the right hand is more or less OK, but I find it nearly impossible to reach the hard buttons with my left thumb. The two hard buttons at the bottom are also almost impossible to use with just one hand.

2. Leaving the Pronto on the couch by my side or in the coffee table in front of me doesn't help: it's difficult to read the LCD if you don't look directly at it.

3. I can't get used to a touchscreen-centric remote. I have my other remotes shapes in my brain *because* I learned them unconsciously just by touch. The very few "hard" buttons on the Pronto, which on the other hand are not easily reachable as I said, make everything but changing volume or channel a "two hands-two eyes" task, where it takes just my thumb with the normal remotes (at least with the best designed, like the one from my Loewe TV or digital satellite receiver from Philips).

4. For programmers, designers or those interested in GUIs (I consider myself part of the three categories) it's fun to look for discrete codes in this forum, design new buttons, create an interface, program utilities, etc. I've found myself doing most of this (well, starting to) for more than two weeks. During those two weeks I've barely used the Pronto for what it was intended for: control my home theater equipment. To be honest I feel a bit like a fool.

5. Programming the Pronto is by no means an easy task. I've been a programmer for years and I find the operating system too restrictive (*and* tricky) for real programmers and definitely useless to non-advanced PC users, even average-skilled computer literate people will use ProntoEdit just for basic tasks (I just can't imagine what my mother would do with a Pronto). On the other hand, not programming the Pronto makes it an absurdly expensive universal remote (who wants this thing just to learn the codes from the other remotes "as is"?). Philips should provide both more openness and pre-programmed solutions along with the gadget. Being just in the middle makes no sense to me. Besides, the nicest solutions I've seen here are very tricky nice tries to override the default interface with the three areas (home, macros and devices) the system has been designed with. This doesn't surprise me; no one seems to find them useful: me neither.

6. Philips doesn't support this thing. For what I've read here people have tried to contact them for codes, file formats, help, etc. apparently with no success. I'm not a hacker; I like full documentation and support when I face any new programming project. I understand the manufacturers of the new remotes are trying to sell and this might explain why the guys from RTI (the makers of the new TheaterTouch remote, or "T2") are promptly and kindly asking all my questions about their remote. I don't know how would they do "after" I eventually buy from them, but this is definitely a must for me. Some people have said here that this big forum is a reason to go for the Pronto ("the Pronto community" and all that). I think it might as well be a very bad sign. This forum is a quite helpful place but it just proves what I'm saying here: most of the messages posted are asking for help. Philips must be really happy with you Daniel: you and the rest of the people helping here are doing their job, for free!!!

My silver Pronto has a very elegant design, clearly "cooler" than the competitors; it definitely fits the style of my home and my personal visual tastes. I love it in that sense, I find it sophisticated and really cool. I've tried hard to find a good reason to keep it, but I haven't: in my honest opinion and for the reasons above it is an unpractical device. If I ever go for something like the T2 or the MX-1000 (I won't be such an impulsive buyer next time...) my aesthetic sense might be a bit hurt (sorry RTI and the others: Philips beats you clearly there), but I might get a remote I can use with one hand, without looking at it and being supported by the manufacturer. It's a reasonable trade-off to me.

Pablo

i have to agree....i have the thing and althoug it is 'cool', it isn't practical for the user simply wanting to replace remotes. that was my main objective, and not to spend time on the computer figuring out a new program. and ergonamically it sucks. i cant get much one handed operation from it, and requiring two hands, and visual recognition is a lotta work compared to the avg univeral remote. ill perhaps investigate the TC or wait for some other easier to handle remotes.

I have to agree with most of what has been said
here. I do plan on keeping Pronto, but the
reality is, the emphasis on touchscreen
operation is proving to be it's shortcoming
for me. Navigating a cable/sat guide menu or
a DVD menu is ultimately a task that is suited
for tactile buttons and for me, a year later,
still a frustration with Pronto. Luckily my
hands are large, but still find myself using
two hands and/or looking at screen more than
i would like. It is versatile and very powerful yes, but i agree, customization via P-Edit is
very cumbersome and above all, very time intensive. I think a lot of the appeal is with
those that like playing with graphics and such.
But from a pure functional standpoint, Pronto
is in sore need of an array of 'hard-keys'.

It's really nice to see that an opinion that conflicts with the majority of Pronto users can be posted here and taken with such open-mindedness. As a user interface designer, I've learned that there's no such thing as a perfect interface--some people want tactile feedback where others want menus and help screens. Where some want absolute ease of use, others want configurability. Suffice it to say that there is no "right" answer to "what's the best remote." Clearly, anyone who doesn't like a touchscreen interface would be better suited to choose another remote.

For me, the Pronto is the remote I've always wanted. It's the only universal remote I've ever owned that allowed me to put all my other remotes in a drawer and forget I ever had them. With my other universal remotes, I always caught myself looking at the buttons anyway, so I lose nothing in having a touchscreen, and I gain everything. As I've admitted before, I'd have preferred to have a hard cursor pad on the Pronto, but that's just about the only thing I would change.

Pablo, all of your concerns are legitimate. For some folks, Pronto is just not the way to go. And I think we all agree that Philips' support of this VERY expensive universal remote is beyond pathetic. It would not take a skilled programmer very long at all to write an application that would let you choose your devices from a list, then create a task-based interface by asking a few simple questions about how your system is hooked together. Daniel has founded a wonderful community here, but he shouldn't have needed to.

I'm behind the Pronto all the way, but you're right that I wouldn't recommend it to very many people. Most consumers want turn-key solutions. The Pronto is NOT one of those.

So goodbye, Pablo. Your viewpoint is noted and respected, at least by me. Hopefully someone from Philips does actually read this site, and perhaps they can learn something from your departure. Pronto has a shot at being the most useful home theater component since the VCR-- I'd sure like to see it live up to that potential.

With respect,
Dale Crawford

one comment Dale, you make a nice pro/con statement for the pronto but when you say there is 'no perfect interface', as a designer of a remote you must agree that its more than the interface. the interface has to be aware of the application, and a remote control, particularly for home theater, should be easy AND convenient. unfortunately, this doesn't appear to lend itself to touchscreens as some of us have realized. when programmers do their magic it sometimes is easy to get caught up in the software marvels and not remember what device the software resides in, and again the real complaint here is that a cumbersome, two handed touchscreen remote is not as convenient as a hard keypad remote.

Pablo -

Sorry to hear you're bailing out. I agree with some of the things you've said, however, disagree with others. Here's my two cents:

I most STRONLY agree with you that Philips should provide better support. That can take many different forms, the first of which would be remote codes for more equipment, the way that the TC does. In fact, if they wanted to get SMART about it, they could package the ProntoEdit software, along with IR codes, and a few more "pretty" interfaces, on a CD-ROM in the box. If a consumer complains that they don't know how to program the remote, or they don't have a PC, then the push back that Philips can have is that they didn't buy from an authorized dealer, whom they could pre-qualify to have the ability to program the remotes for their customers.

I also agreed with you about "average" users being fearful of, or unwilling to, program. Many want a product that will "hit the ground running" straight out of the box. The problem with that is that you're confined to someone else's vision of how you should be using your equipment... definitely a Microsoft paradigm embedded in that product!

I've had my Pronto about a month now, and there was a time about 2 weeks into programming that I began wondering what I had gotten myself into. I was ready to seek a qualified therapist for spending $300 on something that was causing me so much work. But with a little persistance, I settled on both a task-based paradigm, and interface, that would suit my likes.

I agree with Dale when he says that much of what you describe as problematic with the Pronto is attributable not so much to the Pronto itself, but touchscreens in general. Either you like this style of remote, or you don't. Form follows function - it's a tradeoff. Ergo = narrower; narrower = smaller screen; smaller screen = less customization. Or, to make it easier to handle, it would have to be LONGER. But longer, to give more room for more hard buttons, presents it's own aesthetic and ergonomic challenges. I've seen the TheaterMaster photos, and I definitely think it's not for me - it reminds me of a boomerang on steroids. Too bulky and impractical for my tastes. Of course, if anyone ever breaks into my home, I can use it as a club in self defense.

It took a bit of getting used to, but I like the form of the Pronto. Could it be better? Maybe, but I 'm not sure what sacrifices a different shaped alternative would impose, and whether or not I'd want to give up a wider screen for an eaiser grip, or the short, compact design for more hard buttons.

back to support for a moment, I agree that Philips isn't the greatest where that's concerned, but I doubt that users of other remotes from Sony or Microsoft will get better results. We need to rememmber that this isn't Philps' core business, therefore it doesn't get as much focus as, say, their handheld PC products. But, if you were to purchase a product from a smaller company, it is exposed to the financial risks that plage small companies, in that they may go out of business, and THEN you'd REALLY see lousy support! Remember the CORE reomote? What ever happened to that? The upside to dealing with a Philips product is that it has the benefit of being backed by the financial resources of a huge company that can "float" a new product financially, as it grows into the market. If the tradeoff is lackluster response from the vendor, then I can deal with it, because the community support is strong.

In retrospect, despite my brief frustration a few weeks back, it's all been worth it for me. Basically, you have to make a tradeoff... there's not going to be a "perfect" remote, as you pointed out.

Hope this helps put some things into perspective, and much luck finding the "perfect" remote!

Regards,
Rovert.

There is no such thing as a perfect product. I found that for me the pros outnumber the cons. I think the Pronto/RC5000 simply is the best (touchscreen) remote money can buy. But anyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. I used to have a Sony RM-TP501 which also has a touchscreen. Boy, was I happy to get rid of that piece of junk when the Pronto/RC5000 arrived! You actually needed both hands, both feet, a magnifying-glass and a lot of money (4 AA batteries every other week!) to use the device not to mention the very dim display even with the backlight on.

The Pronto not as convenient as a hard keypad remote? I don't want to remember what keys I've put my device commands under. Also, a 'normal' learning remote is always missing a few keys or just has too many unused keys for a particular device. At least a touchscreen remote like the pronto gives us the ability to show the keys howy we want and where we want.
I agree with Dale, though, that the Pronto simply is not suitable for every consumer. But a lot of these consumers probably don't want to spend big bucks for a remote anyway.

I also agree with a lot of people who say the Pronto and PE software should be easier to use and lack important features. But hey, it's an evolving product that can become better with the input of the users.
So, Philips listen to your customers. Remember Video 2000 and DCC (did they ever introduce this in the US?) which were both brilliant and innovative products but got pushed out of the market mainly because of bad marketing.

One final thing about the Pronto (something Dale has mentioned as well, I believe): it would be greatly appreciated if we're able to customize the entire touchscreen!

Cheers,
Ron

This is certainly a nice community. (If Philips ever reads this and brings out a better "Pronto2" I should seriously think of coming back!)

I wanted to point out just an irony: it was Dale's CCF which made me "see the light" about the programmability of the pronto, the bad ideas behind the original design, the lack of Philips commitment in the development aspect, etc. etc. etc. (I'm honored by your reply, Dale)

His CCF is a user interface proposal made "in spite of" and "not with the help of" the Pronto itself. I agree that rigid user interface guidelines are against the user's right to choose, but just the same as the total absence of rules normally leads to non-programmers confussion (that's an old battle in the user interface design history, isn't it, Dale?). Why not let the programmers do their job providing them with all the tools, documentation and support to offer turnkey solutions (a CD full of CCFs designed by people like Dale, for exmaple) to the rest of the world? Obviously: BEFORE marketing the thing and supporting it AFTER. What I really dislike is this compromise-like (i.e.: bad) solution that leads to frustration like mine to most owners of the Pronto.

About dealing with small and big companies: big companies have always been small sometime. This comunity is made out of "early adopters", as the marketing guys say, which shouldn't be so worried about that. Besides, if one of these days Philips finds its product no longer profitable, interesting or whatever, they will discontinue it without a word to you, that I'm sure of.

There might be no perfect remote, but I think that a community like this is large enough to be heard by the manufacturers about building the better one, or at least two or three models that will fit most tastes (there's no need for just "one", is it? :-) Do you think these companies out there are listening? The big ones? The small ones?...

Let me say something about companies arrogance in general: I've worked a short time for a small but international company that's sitting on the best product in its niche market and making all the wrong moves about the marketing. One of these days an even smaller company will eat them up by understanding just one thing: it's listening to customer demands what makes a product line succesful and grow. If Philips doesn't listen to this community, whoever does will kill the Pronto.

Regards,

Pablo

I am sorry that the Pronto did not work out for you, I hope you find something that works well for you. If hard buttons are what you want, you may want to check out the Marantz RC-2000 MKII. I have heard good things about that remote, you could also ask around in the universal remote forum.

The Pronto was the near-perfect solution for me. I was looking for customization, especially in button naming, size, and shape. My biggest beef with the hard button remotes was that I never had enough buttons to do what I wanted and always forgot which button does what.

I can totally agree with the thoughts about navigating menu's with the touch screen. I don't mind using the touch screen for 90% of of my navigating. I don't even have a problem with the DVD menus. I get hosed up sometimes trying to control my TiVo, it seems like every other function is controlled by the navigation cursor. I am starting to get used to it, but I would still prefer hard buttons for this feature.

Don't give up the search, I am sure there is remote nirvana out there for everyone! :)

Take Care,

Will

To be honest with all of you. I'm seriously thinking of trying the RTI's TheaterTouch. I don't think touchscreens are to be demonized. I just think a well balanced combination of touchscreen and hard buttons would make it better. This is what it appeals to me from the T2, as well as its one-hand operation promise.

Doing 90% of your navigation through a touchscreen is definitely wrong with me. Having a huge collection of unlabeled buttons in a brick is obviously even worst. In fact I've asked RTI about the programmability of the T2 in order to use its touchscreen just as an activities menu and let the hard buttons do the rest while watching/listening.

What do you think about that?

Pablo

Personally, I like the touchscreen interface. David asserted that touchscreens don't lend themselves to remote controls, which is true for people who prefer tactile feedback. As it turns out, however, most people don't ever learn the agility with their remotes that David has. The irony of this situation is that a lot of the real "power users" in the Universal Remotes world DO learn the skills that David speaks of, making the touchscreen LESS useful to the people who actually need its programability the most.

Let's face it: the PERFECT remote would work in many of the same ways as the Pronto, but the buttons you program into it would somehow be real, physical buttons that change as if they were on a touchscreen. Until materials technology exists to create such a device, I think we're all in for a huge compromise. For me, the Pronto is currently the best compromise, because I always end up looking at the controls on my remote, whether it's a touchscreen or not. The only thing I do without looking are functions that use a cursor control. Other people use their remotes in other ways, but for me, the only change I desperately want for the Pronto is to have a hard-button cursor control.

Oh and... if Philips wants to hire my company to design a CD full of CCF's, I'd be delighted to lend a hand!

(By the way... I've been covertly working on a new CCF that is specifically designed to make it VERY easy to create a task-based CCF using your own codes. It won't incorporate all of the special functions of your devices, but it will at least get you started with basic functions--without two or three weeks of programming lead time. It won't be much use to those who have already created their own CCF's, but it should make things MUCH easier for new Pronto owners to get started. I'll keep you posted, although things have been going slower than I'd like because I'm currently in the process of buying a new house and moving.)

Thanks,
Dale Crawford

OK, first up I have to admit that I have BIG hands and no problems with working the Pronto one handed. Unfortunately my feet are not in the same league :-)

That old chestnut of hard keys vs touchscreen could just run forever. However I just don't see how you can build a universal remote with every key you might ever need without it making the remote unusable again due to size/space and introducing a whole new game of "hunt the button". I think its down to personal preference but I do like the balance of hard and soft keys that the Pronto delivers and haven't hit any kind of wall with wanting more hard keys for common tasks.

As regards the programming skill levels and flexibility I think there are fundamental issues of product intent and support. It scares me shitless whenever poeple say they want to get hold of internal file formats and controls for any software or hardware. It is absolutely certain that they are a tiny minority of customers who will only generate their own problems. Yes its a biased view but one grown out of being on the software supplier side for all my professional career both as a developer and in sales. I note also in the original post the view that the Pronto doesn't come set up enough out of the box. Any product that tries to bridge that range of user expectations is doomed to failure. However there is room for improvement here. For example the suggestion by one of the earlier posters that the Pronto come with a CD-ROM library of common devices could be very slick (reality is that for cost and support reasons it would have to be web site driven rather than actually on the CD). Frankly though I suspect I would have done little more than rip off a few ideas from such a library. I actually quite enjoy the creative challenge of incorporating new kit and moving gradually towards the perfect CCF. I do hope they smarten up the UI of Prontoedit though as it looks a bit unprofessional certainly when compared to that for the HK take Control.

Anyway thats just my quick thoughts as I am a happy Pronto user. I think it has pitched itself just right into the considerable space between the "one-for-all" range and restrictively expensive "system controllers". Philips are not alone in seeing this market.

Pete -

That was my CD-ROM idea, however, I don't agree with you. The cost of pressing a CD is measured in the sub-$1 range nowadays - an insignificant cost to a manufacturer.

Also, while I agree the Web does have it's own special attributes, not everyone has Web access... where ROMs are ubiquitous, I believe.

Here's a thought for us. I'm in the IT industry, also; sales & marketing. Let me lay out a vision that we can possibly "sell" to Philips.

Presumptions:
1) Multiple device IR databases by brand, subcategorized by model (Yamaha, Denon, Sony, etc., then 495, 795, 995, and so on)
2) Multiple CCF templates arranged by activity, and/or device and/or navigation, or whatever other styles might be available, to set the "paradigm" of operation.
3) OK, ok... so Philips provides bot web AND CD-ROM access for what I'm suggesting here. (g)

So, why not make the configuraiton setup process "Wizard" driven, instead of from scratch? Ever use Microsoft PowerPoint or Lotus Freelance Graphics to create a screenshow?

During the installation of ProntoEdit, or the creation of a new CCF, the user would be walked through a series of "setup wizard" choices on the PC, where he or she would be:

1) Prompted to select from checkboxes or radio buttons, the Equipment Families (brands) of units that are in question (sets IR code base?).

2) Select the specific devices (model numbers) for each device (sets specific discrete commands where available?).

3) Select a "operating template" from different style CCFs that woould be available, corresponding to those paradigms I indicated earlier.

4) Select "graphic themes" much in the way you can change the color, backgrounds and fonts of a PowerPoint or Freelance presentation, without affecting the content or layout of the presentation. The user could chose between, say, buttons or tabs, between square and round, etc. to personalize their choice.

5) Select the "most common activities", such as: Watch TV, Watch DVD, Listen to Music, to set the operating paradigm.

6) When done, the ProntoEdit "Setup Wizard" would take button classes, alias them into the proper templates, and downloaded into the Pronto!

Ok, so what we have here is a down and dirty way for a user to get the IR codes he needs into the device, and select an operating paradigm, without any programming intervention. And it is presented in a familiar Windows-based "wizard" style that users see every day when using other common software packages. All the "intelligence" is offloaded to the PC. No new firmware or ROMs would be required on the Pronto.

What do you think? Is that a solution that would work?

Wow!
You are all to be commended on your attitudes.
While shopping for a new remote I came across this string and was amazed at the true openminded comments here.
All news groups/BBs should take a lesson.
Also I learned of some potential alternatives to the Pronto.

Thanks to all

Regards,
Phrede

This is a great forum on a topic that I have spent considerable time debating. First, In response to Rovert; In terms of a ready made prgramming solution, Crestron has developed what you are asking for. However, It is not turnkey, and, it requires hardware, and costs alot more then the pronto. It is an RF unit and can be the size of a small laptop.
The tactile button thing is something that I have played closer attention to. Generally speaking, most people gravitate towards a select group of redundant functions. We use channel, volume, play, stop, and a few more. Those functions can be had by using the existing tactile buttons on the pronto. The problem I see is navigating the sat or digital cable Perhaps the DVD menu also. The star pattern is becoming a common item on remote configurations.It needs to be tactile. Perhaps at the bottom where the mouse buttons are.
Personally, I find the pronto much more ergo then Phast, and even Crestron. Many of our clients want the RC5000 despite owning elaborate control systems merely because they can run it in one hand. You can eliminate the " Buttonmania " that can be seen on the RC2000 and various other learning pieces through the pronto which is a great development.
On the programming side of things, even if a person is a good programmer, designing a remote layout that is NEOPHYTE friendly is an art form in itself. Envision yourself as the baby sitter going into a new house finding that remote for the first time. Can they run the system? And turn it off? How about watching the tv, and then switching to cd, is the TV still on? How do they turn that off? A holistic approach to the selection of devices in regards to their operation is needed so that the remote control can be layed out as smoothly as possible. That is not Philips problem, that is ours in our gear selection.
In conclusion, the Pronto is not perfect, but its better then anything else out there in terms of making more complex systems a bit less intimidating by hiding many of the functions that are needed until they are actually being used.
I can only pray for the Pronto Pro. Color LCD!!