Okay, here you "quote" Jesus as saying "... on this rock I will build my church".

But in your previous post (post #7) you say that the church was created by man, not god.

What am I not getting here?

Back. If you want serious discussions and answers, fine. I you want to slam things, make fun, or talk about people burning, then I'm wasting my time. For thousands of years people have discussed the nature of evil, why things go wrong, why do bad things happen. Read "Disappointment with God" by Philip Yancey. He covers a lot of these things in an insightful way. I can't change the discussion from "to atheists" to "believers" or vice versa, especially since you are asking about "Christian" doctrine, which by the way, is about as varied and different as the day is long. Christians are still arguing about it, but as I understand the question, you figure that since Sarah Palin was praying for victory and lost, God must favor Obama. With that reasoning, then God favored Nero, since he was burning Christians to light his garden, and having them eaten to amuse the mob. Were their prayers worthless? Of course not.

QQQ, you missed the point. I wasn't covering my rear, I said that I doubted the punishment or blessing angle and went to the free will idea. For whatever reason, the country chose Obama. Whether that is a blessing or curse will be played out by Obama, the congress, Nancy Polosi, the electorate etc, etc. He has free will as well. How will he use it? Will he ask for guidance, or go with his own flawed and fallen intellect.(We are all flawed and fallen by the way). What choices will he make?

As for hell, God as shown us the correct way, like it or not. You don't have to go that way, but understand that sin separates us from God, and hell is a place with no God. Church and religion have nothing to do with it, as again, that is YOUR choice. You can believe or not. You can choose to live with and for God, or against Him, but you have to choose. When I got saved, the guy I was talking to said, "What would the world be like if it was run the way God wanted it to be run?" THAT, is what heaven will be like, because His will is not done here on earth. It is His mercy that keeps Him from destroying all the evil He sees, because He desires to redeem all those who would accept Him. The Lord says that all our righteous deeds are like filthy rags. Ever try to clean a dirty window with a dirty rag? The punishment for our sins is death my friend, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. If you think you aren't a sinner, then you call God a liar, which is a sin. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Look, Christians aren't perfect, we make lots of mistakes, walking out my faith has been the toughest thing I have ever done, I trip and fall daily. I'm sorry that someone has made you feel that God wants to burn you, because it couldn't be more wrong. He loves us all, as sent His son to pay the penalty for our wrongdoings. He was willing to be mocked, beaten, and killed so that you could have a relationship with Him.

David, I don't think God gives a hoot about our elections, HE does care about our hearts, He cares how we live, He cares about US. Who should help the poor, the govt or YOU? Is the responsibility to do good in the hands of the govt or YOU? Do you know the story of the Good Samaritan? If we ALL lived that way, would the world be a better place? In the last 100 years or so, has govt done more good or evil to people in general? I know you don't believe, but I will pray for you if you don't mind. Say no, and I won't. Remember, God believes in you, regardless.

Sorry - that's what happens with jargon - Jesus' "church" is the body of believers if you notice it's singular. This body has two tenants Mt 22:36 "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” and this is were the man made "church" comes into play. We (I am as guilty as anyone) like to "customize" this which leads to the plethora of man made "churches".

You? What was I thinking?


Sure you are, mixed in I suspect with some laughter as you drag this thing out and mess with these guys playing the straight man :-). Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the humor, I just wouldn't have replied if I had noticed it was a new thread. I doubt I'll be posting again here, but I will be watching, so keep us entertained playing the straight man.

Not me baby.. Im as perfect as perfect can be.

GLS not to talk out of turn but I don't think either were attacking more of questioning with vigor.:) You said it perfectly it is a profound subject that even we have trouble comprehending. It is hard to - I think - not be cynical of "Christianity" because of our in fighting. It may have been Gandhi or just an Urban legend that he would have become a Christian except for the followers. Than you throw in all the "cults" and what is the world to think. But you also summed it up with we are human with all of humanities fallibilities and flaws.

How did i quote myself? Maybe im not so perfect... :-/

Do you get all your facts from a cartoon??? There are things called books that usually contain reliable information. Please tell me your not serious.

My self-imposed exile did not last long. Just like in the Godfather, I tried to get out, they pull me back in.


Please tell me you are not serious having to ask him if he is serious.

Yes you are.

On the question of popes, I don't think there was a pope until there was an official organized church, which would have been sometime in the 4th century after Constantine converted to Christianity and legalized the church. Until that time, the church was illegal and more of an underground organization within the Roman Empire. I am going from memory and may not have all the facts right. Peter is traditionally called the first Pope because of his prominence in the early church, and the quote about "upon this rock" etc to the best of my knowledge.

David, QQQ seems to think that this thread is a joke or attempt to poke fun at the Christians who come here. I hope that is not true, but if it is that is cool too, because I want to thank you for starting this thread. I was upset about the election, discouraged, even angry, but when I started writing my response to you I felt that all going away. It helped me remember what I believe and why, and who ultimately is in control. I hope we don't regret the choice we have made, but I will respect our new president and the choice that our citizens and our system has made. Did God ordain this election? I think God is much more interested in how we deal with our choices and circumstances than the circumstances themselves. I'm just going to do my best to be the type of person He wants me to be.

Nope.. i stopped fooling around with AMX years ago.

Of course the far simpler answer, and the one that Occam's Razor would definitely point towards, is that there is no God, therefore what happens has nothing to do with what he or she or it thinks or doesn't think or plans or doesn't plan, and why he or she or it didn't bother to show up until tens of thousands of years after humans existed to finally set them on the right path. Or theoretically showed up any numbers of times and pointed them down many different paths, all of which cannot be true.

If you study the history of religion it's hard to ignore the fact that its purely a human creation, which has mutated so many times as to be almost innumerable at this point. Endless schisms of people who only believed this or that part of some previous religion and started a new one. Or who took various bits of other religions and made a new one, which then become a thing until itself which later divided and mutated. It's been going on for thousands of years.

The talk of hell above is a good example. There is no hell in Judaism in the sense of the Christian hell. It was a place of judgement, and where people could reflect on their actions and get themselves back out and to heaven, not a place of eternal torture for the already condemned. The entire basis of Christianity is that it's the fulfilment of the prophecies of Judiasm, which has no hell, but then suddenly there is a hell. So how did the people who originally talked to god never get told about there being a hell?

I'm not trying to make fun of anyone, but when I see people who seem to obviously believe these stories are totally true, my desire to get to the truth of the matter impels me to bring these types of things up, despite the fact that I'll probably suffer for it. It just seems that a lot of people who believe these mythologies are true don't spend a lot of time researching them.

good post


when Christianity started there was no pope (the term shows up many centuries later). There where small "churches" i.e. the word passed to followers, As it grew and got more organized there where regional leaders called Popes (most patriarchs/bishops) so there was for instance the Pope of Rome or the Pope of Alexandria.... because Rome and the Roman empire was so big and strong everywhere Christianity was situated at the time the Pope of Rome gained importance, and by the time of Constantine showed up and changed the Roman empire into a Christian empire Rome was the most important (but still not the only Pope). Eventually the Roman Pope because "all powerful" in the religion (and we have the "Pope" Catholics have now)

This is a bit OT But Constantine moved the political center of Rome to Constantinople, and eventually the Roman empire got split up into a western and eastern empire with a seat in Rome and one in Constantinople. Eventually the Christian churches split in two because the Pope of Rome favored the Western half (which had started falling into more disarray, and that is the birth of the Catholic faith while Constantinople had the patriarch of Constantinople at its head. (added this to say that mcn779 and you need to differentiate the political, spiritual and traditional aspects of religions)

also once Rome got the power (before the schism, the obvious next step was to give it credibility, that is why Peter is known as the first Pope and there is a lineage of papacy emanating from him. It is Kind of like Kings in Ancient Greece being able to say their lineage goes back to Hercules.