But don't you see that that's not really any proof at all? For instance, the Koran says that Muhammad flew to Mecca on a winged horse, from where he ascended to heaven. Do you believe that this is true? It's no more unlikely than coming back from the dead and clearly people claim to have seen it and reported it, but I'm doubting you probably believe it.
Again, I'm not picking on you, just pointing out the issue with critical evaluation here. You offer as proof something (claimed eye witness account) which I'm pretty sure that you don't accept as proof of a similar type of event.
As did probably a lot of other 'gods' that came before the Christian god. But it's not really any proof of anything, other than we seem to exist. Nothing else can logically be drawn from that.
Actually the Roman records are the most interesting, as they detail that on the day that Jesus rose from the dead, hundreds of other "supposed" dead people also rose and walked the earth.
Hey I am not making this up, the Romans kept great records and some document from that time period with a date on it was found by some archeologist and that is what it says.
Never Ignore the Obvious -- H. David Gray
Post 47 made on Thursday November 6, 2008 at 00:48
Actually the Roman records are the most interesting, as they detail that on the day that Jesus rose from the dead, hundreds of other "supposed" dead people also rose and walked the earth.
There's actually zero historical evidence that Jesus existed. I have no trouble believing that Jesus, a guy, existed. But there's no historical proof of it. There are no Roman records of him. So I'm not sure where you read that there were.
Last edited by Dean Roddey
on November 6, 2008 00:59.
The Jews were meticulous in keeping track ot their lineage. There was no agenda other than it's accuracy. Of all the ancient writings there are more copies of the New Testament (approx. 20K) than any other and all from a period in time that is closer to when the actual events happened (100-150 years if I'm not mistaken). These question don't arise concerning Plato and there is almost 1500 years separating the time he died and the earliest available writing and there are only 7 copies of that. But we have no problem believing that Plato existed.
Because Plato was just a guy, so his existence or non-existence wouldn't require nearly so much proof. But, having said that, he's mentioned by various contemporaries, one of who would have been the Church's own final answer to all things scientific, for a thousand years, and his student, Aristotle. And some of those contemporaries didn't really agree with him, and so wouldn't have had much reason to make him exist when he didn't.
There's actually zero historical evidence that Jesus existed. I have no trouble believing that Jesus, a guy, existed. But there's no historical proof of it. There are no Roman records of him. So I'm not sure where you read that there were.
Oh thats entirly untrue, I was serious Atheist at one time and even then during my debunking phase of my life, I was able to find that some of the churches that were established by the apostles still exists to this day and they in fact have some of the original writings accounting the teaching of Christ, further there is actually credible evidence that there was a Jesus who was incarcerated at the same time as Barabass who was a big pain in the Romans sides so they wrote about him a bit. There really is a lot of evidence out there that is very substantive, the only thing that is wonky is most of the time the dates when these events took place does not always line up.
Never Ignore the Obvious -- H. David Gray
Post 50 made on Thursday November 6, 2008 at 01:05
Stanley says, "The other equally interesting thing to me, is how devout and for the lack of a better term -- how some religions, take on the form of Mind Control, where followers seem to shut down certain behavioral and reasoning faculties, in the name of "believing". Snake handling, terrorism, commit suicide (Jim Jones and that other group a few years ago) drinking poison, killing those who they deem the bad guys, talking in tongues, and giving money to these southern ministers with the big-hair, and creating "holy lands" or territories. "
Would SOMEONE explain to me your fascination with snake-handling?!!! What does talking in tongues have to do with any of this?
Because both the snake handling, talking in tongues, flopping around on the floor, healing - are all very interesting behavior, maybe? Observing those rituals is nothing more than people working themselves into self induced trances -- or do you believe in that stuff? If you do, I'm again just making an observation from a non evangelical viewpoint.
Have you EVER HEARD someone talk in tongues Stanley? You mention Jim Jones, but does anyone mention that comet cult that committed suicide so they could catch the comet to their home planet, paradise, whatever? And the difference in giving money to big haired preachers and slimy politicians is what?
There isn't that much difference, except that those TV preachers sitting in their guilded chairs asking for money from all of the frightened old people is thievery. It's very similar though, a sales job. The bigger the hair, the closer to god! LOL
Is it totally strange that God would hold you accountable for your actions? God is a concept. If God were such a great guy / entity, why do bad things happen to good people? Why do some bad people get away with murder?
Who and what is god? Yeah I think it's pretty much a fairy tale. Is your god better than other religions gods?
Stanley says, "I know it is cliche' as heck, but it's sort of like we all have to have SOMETHING to believe in, as a crutch or means of adding sense to our lives, and when you boil down the majority of the religions out there, they all pretty much (for the most part) are structured to encourage doing the right thing, moderation, decency, control of greed, thankfulness, humility, and all that junk.'
I'm not KNOCKING the need to have something to believe in, I'm just saying it's amazing every civilazation from the Hopi indians toe Australian Pymgies have crafted belief systems. I was just making an observation. I think you're taking this down the wrong road... The point I'm making is it's not BAD to believe in something. I just resent it when certain "Chrisitans" get defiant and INSIST their "Word" or THEIR beliefs are the only right beliefs.
How about animals? Do dogs go to heaven or being that they don't have religion--where does it leave them?
Galatians 5:22-"But the fruit of the Spirit is love,joy,peace,patience,kindness,goodness faithfulness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." I think people have gotten hung up on the outward trapping of Christianity and missed the spirit. If a politician professed these qualities Stanley, would it freak you out so much? Are these bad things? I think you hit some of them in your own post.
Why all the hostility?
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger." Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 51 made on Thursday November 6, 2008 at 01:10
That's not what I'd call lot of substantive evidence. There is no real historical evidence of his existence. I would challenge you to produce any such evidence from some credible, non-religious organization. There are no Roman records, no records he ever met with Pontius Pilot, something you'd think might be recorded, nothing of that sort. He was a nobody at that time, and there'd be no reason to expect anything of that sort anyway.
Because both the snake handling, talking in tongues, flopping around on the floor, healing - are all very interesting behavior, maybe? Observing those rituals is nothing more than people working themselves into self induced trances -- or do you believe in that stuff? If you do, I'm again just making an observation from a non evangelical viewpoint.
Very valid point and in my opinion it is something that these people have - while not taken out of context - have disregarded other admonitions in the bible about testing God. Corinthians 10:9, “We should not test the Lord, as some of them did — and were killed by snakes.” This is not a direct reference to Mark 16:17-18 but very applicable. The healing is different. The laying of hands - human touch - has been found to make a difference is peoples recoveries. But that does even further from a non-religious level look at B.F. Skinners experiment with infants. Have you ever been around anyone that has had parents were stoic and unfeeling. The medical professions in the past 5 years has finally come to the conclusion - after much research - kicking and screaming that prayer can make a significant difference.
Yes I believe is speaking in tongues but I have never seen it actually happen. I have been in the churches where people suddenly start mumbling weird stuff and it made me very uncomfortable. The bible says “Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" (1 Corinthians 14:6) and tongues means language other than your own but a language. Not the best translation from the Greek.
There isn't that much difference, except that those TV preachers sitting in their guilded chairs asking for money from all of the frightened old people is thievery. It's very similar though, a sales job. The bigger the hair, the closer to god! LOL
Again your correct. I was watching TV with my oldest son when he was about 6 and one of those guys was on and my son asked why is he always asking for money. The bible tells us that there will be people like that out there and we should be on our guard.
Who and what is god? Yeah I think it's pretty much a fairy tale. Is your god better than other religions gods?
Find my other post about the uniqueness of our God.
I just resent it when certain "Christians" get defiant and INSIST their "Word" or THEIR beliefs are the only right beliefs.
Mt 22:36 "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” These are the essence of Christianity and we often don't live up to them but saying - and I'm extrapolating here - God is wrong, doesn't exist etc. is much like the customer that says your system is trash because he can't remember to keep charged batteries in the 1K remote.
How about animals? Do dogs go to heaven or being that they don't have religion--where does it leave them?
They have no soul. Their not from Motown.:)
Why all the hostility?
I hope I'm not coming across as having any.
Marc
Post 55 made on Thursday November 6, 2008 at 02:02
Damn...I'm joinin' this place... They have a kick ass band! Is that Napolean Dynamite twirling around...?
Now come on guys isn't "talking in tongues just "learned behavior"?
Ha! That was awesome...
I wonder if it's all that spinning around that makes them all cross-eyed and crazy looking, or just a low level of chlorine in the gene-pool. Napolean nearly made it out of the door and "in to the light", but he managed to turn back at the last minute. Close one there...
Edit:
I found this one while poking around a few weeks back. I don't know much about Bill Maher, but apparently these guys do. It's an attack at the movie Religiolous by a couple of guys that are from a Christian youth group. I know they're just sticking up for their beliefs, but really... ...they still think that Borat was real and that he hates Jews (Sacha Baron Cohen is Jewish). They also think that the fact the movie was made by Lionsgate, that that itself is demonic. These guys are the future of the Christian faith???
Last edited by HiFiRobbie
on November 6, 2008 02:37.
Problems worthy of attack, prove their worth, by hitting back. -Piet Hein.
Post 57 made on Thursday November 6, 2008 at 02:27
That's not what I'd call lot of substantive evidence. There is no real historical evidence of his existence. I would challenge you to produce any such evidence from some credible, non-religious organization. There are no Roman records, no records he ever met with Pontius Pilot, something you'd think might be recorded, nothing of that sort. He was a nobody at that time, and there'd be no reason to expect anything of that sort anyway.
Josephus calls James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ" and wrote "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure."
Why would there be any records of his meeting with Pilot or Caiaphas you're right to the people in power he was a nobody. They weren't the people that he came to reach out to because they didn't need anyone. Politics haven't changed.
Post 58 made on Thursday November 6, 2008 at 02:29
David, QQQ seems to think that this thread is a joke or attempt to poke fun at the Christians who come here.
No, I did not start the thread as a joke. Nor did I start it to poke fun at any christians here. Alas, I didn't last long.
I started it in the attempt to make at least one of you christians read what I said and then take a moment to digest the absolute absurdity of most christians when they claim that they speak for god, or that prayer "works", or that god is a republican. And I'm doing this because NOBODY ELSE WILL. This is why the thought of Sarah Palin in the White House gave me acid reflux. I would just like ONE reporter to stick a microphone in Palin's face and ask "so, what about this god thing now? Is he going to renege on that whole pipeline thing, too?"
Instead, what do I get? A bunch of long-winded, nonsensical historical "evidence" regarding some goofball who got nailed to a cross. And despite numerous warnings from QQQ ("Please tell me you are not serious having to ask him if he is serious" when I mentioned South Park [excellent episode regarding the easter bunny, by the way] as my source of papal knowledge), my own comment about "Simon Says", and some excellent commentary from Dean Roddey, the blather keeps on a-comin'.
Speaking of Dean Roddey; Dean, please continue trying to sway these folks because I don't have the patience to go on that fool's errand of trying to explain why you can't prove something doesn't exist (as it is non-falsifiable). If they only knew how many other "virgin birth", "son-of-a-deity", "resurrected holy person" fables predate the story of Jesus Christ they might rethink this whole religion thing.
But I doubt it.
What the hell century are we living in, anyway?
Oh, and don't forget to pray that your favorite sports team prevails, because god really fu
Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time!
OP | Post 60 made on Thursday November 6, 2008 at 02:38
Josephus calls James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ" and wrote "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure."
Is this the part where Rudy Giuliani says:
"A community organizer? What?"
Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time!
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