I am helping a networking/cabling friend of mine with a redo of another friends house. I am not an A/V guy but I play one on TV. :)

I am just an avid A/V hobbiest and know enough to be somewhat dangerous. I have the main room and master bedroom spec'ed out but distributed audio is somewhat new to me. I plan on using a Denon either 1803 or a 3802 in the main room. He will have 2 other zones 1 on the patio and another in the pool table area what most people would call a dining room. I plan on Niles OS-10's on the patio and some type of decent in ceiling speakers in the pool room. Possibly Speakercraft but still looking.

I am thinking to use a Niles SI-275 off multi-zone 2 from the Denon and put volume controls on the patio and dining room. Xantech makes them with IR built in so this seems like a nice solution for control and volume. I am trying to keep this fairly simple but I want it to work well.

I am good with Pronto programming but they have young kids and the house is all tile so we are thinking a Pro might not be the best thing. I am looking at the MX-700. How is your experience with this? Can hex codes be pasted as with a Pronto? If not are you guys maybe using a Pronto with say both discretes if it was an on/off then learning it to the MX-700?

I know a lot of questions but any help in the right direction would be appreciated. I didn't want to do this I even referred this to an A/V buddy of mine but he went a little overboard in his bid with AMX and some other things that the customer didn't appreciate so I am now trying to help my networking buddy save face. :)

What is the budget for this project? I would start there.

To be honest, I've done many, many multizone audio systems, and I have never had good luck with using the 2nd zone out of a receiver to accomplish the multi-room task. It is not a very user-friendly way of doing a secondary zone. Too much has to happen to get the end result.

If you want to keep it inexpensive, we've found that using a second stereo receiver, which shares the main zone's sources, is a better choice to handle the 2nd zone task, it makes it much more user friendly. And with the right receiver, it is easy to automate the system the way you describe.

Hope that helps,

JJP

Right on the money, John.

Second zone outs on receivers are potentially(hell, they are) confusing to operate. A second stand alone receiver, dedicated to the second zone, will do a superb job, is easy to operate, etc. Get a different brand of receiver if you don't want to do simple ir routing, although this type of system is easy to control simply by using a dual zone connecting block from Xantech. You end up spending the same amount of cash as the second amp, and your customer and their family can run it without getting anxious.

Fact is, if we could delete second zone out and add other valuable features instead, I'd be on it like white on rice.

Run do not walk, second zone (other than McIntosh) do not work and volumes are yuk!
Kid friendly is important look at the Niles zr-4630 or even cheaper look at Speakercraft easy 6 and add your choice of power. Don't skimp to much because in therory it should work and for friends you will never hear the end of it!

On my 5803 and I believe all Denon's with multi-zone's are the same I have a discrete for just that zone. I then have a jump to a source page just for the second zone and separate volume control. It really couldn't be easier. Are you guys saying that if you do a mult-izone perhaps you are not selling or the clients aren't buying control? My only experience is with mine I will admit. I set it up and it works flawlessly so I don't understand why you pros don't like it except if you can't control it properly. I know it would be a pain in the ass with factory remotes but this is all I can think of.

I have to agree with echoslob. Most of my zone 2 has been with Marantz. I use a Xantech universal translator into the zone 2 control input and standard remote codes work just fine. If I need Z2 control from the same room as the receiver with a learning remote I use a xantech RT-8 router. I haven't installed the SR9200 or 8200 but they have some discrete Z2 commands and shouldn't need the router. Xantech has an IR controlled speaker switcher that can be used as a 2 way router but I havn't tried it yet. I haven't done a Yamaha in a few years but they came with a seperate Zone 2 remote on some models

We sell Marantz, and Marantz is one hell of a product, but try to tell the customer that to get audio in the second zone, you need to:

1) Press the Multi-room button. (Customer: What's that?)

2) Within 10 seconds, select the source you want to listen to. Oh, and by the way, you won't be able to select a source in the main zone during this time Mr customer..

3) Hope and pray you did it right. "What's that Mr. customer? You don't hear anything? You're now confused?

4) If you want to change the source, you must turn off multi-room, turn it back on, and repeat steps 2 and 3/

Does that sound easy to the average customer? I should say not.

As I said, if you want to keep it CHEAP, the suggestion I mention above has been the most reliable, easiest to operate system for our clients.

If you have the budget, I would recommend something like Elan. One of the easiest, most reliable multi-zone, multi-source systems I've worked with. Easy to program, easy to grow with, (if the house is wired with thought) and a well thought out product. Sure every system has it's good points and bad points, but with Elan, we've so many good points, and VERY FEW bad points.

By the way, Elan will be introducing a new 6 source, 6 zone multi-room audio system at Cedia that will be cheaper than the Niles system. And a whole lot more reliable.

Hope this helps,

JJP

This message was edited by John Pechulis on 08/30/02 20:29.41.

I've had luck with controlling the multizone out of a marantz with using a Niles Intellipad with the Xantech 'transcoder' 794-00. Learn the multizone buttons into the Intellipad and go from there. Very reliable actually.

But if you have a higher spending limit, then I suggest AudioControl Director, or the AudioAccess stuff, VERY reliable. Or, if your on a tighter budget, then go with a second receiver and control it seperatly. The only concern then is source control...do you share them, how do you power them seperate from the main system, things like this. The systems mentioned in this paragraph have source sharing and powering capabilities...

JOHN,

Now I understand your problem but I don't think it is a multi-zone in general problem but more of the way Marantz implements their second zone. I have owned 2 Marantz receivers BTW so I am familiar with them. I think the last one was an 8000 with the better remote. As an end user I would say that implementation is a total PITA and not well thought out.

Denon has complete Discrete and volume controls for Multi-Zone 2 and it works with digital inputs. Some multi-zones only work with analog. You do not even have to turn the main unit on. Just hit the on for the second zone and it fires up and takes you to the second zone source page. I think if you get in that situation you should maybe give Denon a shot. I moved my Pioneer into the bedroom because it was rack mounted in an A/V room with no OSD. It really sucked because it didn't have discretes for different soundfields. If you were say in PL mode and wanted to listen to 5 channel stereo it was a toggle. To throw another monkey wrench into it after being in a mode for say 10 seconds the first push of the button wouldn't change modes but tell you what mode you were in. Remember I can't see the front panel any way. There was really no way for me to make reliable macros either. Also no speaker switching on the remote just an A/B switch on the front panel. I don't want to sound like an ad for Denon but it is just so much better an easier to control. Like night and day.

Who uses soundfields....Stereo or Surround (5.1 or Pro Logic) is all there is.

Don't waste your time with others. IMHO.

I like DTS when it is encoded and on certain things not a lot I like 5/7 channel stereo. I would say mostly for music I prefer good ole 2 channel. The Denon has pure direct which bypasses any digital circuits so it is analog out for music. To tell you the truth I barely notice a difference if any. I don't use DSP I think that is a total waste. I usually leave it on THX for movies and the Denon will autoswitch to the proper format.

Echo, I completely understand what you are trying to do, and sounds like it would work well.

The way the whole Multi-room issue is implemented really depends on the end user. Don't lose or break the remote your using to control it though, cause I doubt the client would know how to initiate the 2nd zone audio without it.

From experience, we've found it best to have an EASY backup way of controlling the 2nd zone in the event the main control went down for some reason, or GOT LOST. LOL (it does happen).

Trust me when I say this, as an installer, you don't want to get a call at 6pm from a client who is panicing because their main control system went down, and they have a huge cocktail party at 8pm and HAVE to have it up and running for this party.

That's why we are a big fan of an in-wall control system (aka keypad, touchscreen), for use with a secondary audio zone. Can't get lost, and if it does take a crap for some reason, the client CAN EASILY turn on and control the 2nd zone audio system from the equipment itself in an "emergency" situation.

JMHO,

JJP



This message was edited by John Pechulis on 08/31/02 02:19.08.

I have used the Denon 3802 in several two-zone systems and they work flawlessly. The best situation is where you are programming a Pronto or the like, so there is absolutely no muss or fuss about how to control "amp" or "multi," to use Denon's terms.

Echoslob, why would you use the SI-275? If you set up the Denon for five channels, the two channels that could be for a second set of surrounds (yawn) can be used as the second zone amp. That is what I have done and it works.

Yes, you want to sell control with this stuff! I have two Denon 3802 clients who just use the remote, and they have mastered the AMP, TUNER, MULTI jazz, but that is NOT everybody's cup of tea.

One of you guys said you can turn on just one of the Denon's zones. I don't see how that is possible...but the only problem would be if you left, say, the main zone blasting on FM, turned off the system, then turned the system back on from the second zone controller. The FM would blast away in the main zone. Again, the solution here is the controller. I have main and second zones switch to Video Aux (front panel in, never used) during the shutdown macro, so whichever zone you use to turn the beast on, the other zone is silent.

You can also use Video Aux as a "silence this zone" control so that you can turn off the zone you are in without killing the other zone. It really irritates the guy watching some dramatic scene on the DVD when the kid at the pool turns off the whole system, including the DVD signal processing, thus interrupting the movie.

This method of two zone control and safeguard was figured out back when the Yamaha RX-V2095 was the preferred beast. There was no good substitute till the Denon 3802 (and 5802 etc) came out. Keep in mind that I have always hated Denon because their remote controls, with the little slide switches, were just too stupid to live. I still do not like much of the way the front panel works, but at least their new remotes can be figured out now!

An unmentioned downside of the Denon multizone is that it will only play analogue sources.

If you have a digital connection from your CD, PC, MP3 or whatever you will hear nothing if you select it on second zone.

This had me scratching my head for hours.

BRUCE,

Did you read above with my 5803? Zone 2 works with digital. I can't say though for the 3802.

ERNIE,

On my 5803 there is a discrete for multi-zone 2 on/off. You don't have to turn the unit on then press a mulit-zone button. Just one button does it whether the main zone is on or off. Turning zone 2 on does not turn the main zone on. Not sure if the 3802 works like this.

You are saying I can use the unused surrounds with 2 zones 4 speakers? I know I would need impedance matched V/C's. If it will work then that would be even better.

JOHN,

The wall controls sound like a great idea. If we don't need an amp like Ernie says then I can use the coin for that. This guy is afraid the kids will break the Pronto. I originally wanted to use a 6000. It looks like I will be using an MX-700 unless you have a better idea. He just doesn't feel safe with a touch screen with the kids. :)

EDIT,

Ernie I just remembered why I want to use the amp. Multizone 2 is a preout and more controlable then zone 1. The on/off is a toggle zone 2 is a discreet. I think not sure on zone 1 you may have to turn the main unit on first. I also believe it uses the main room volume control zone 2 is totally separate. If I have this wrong please correct me but I believe my 5803 is like this.