ECHO, the main reason we don't use a remote for house audio, is because it is cumbersome to carry it with you. And with kids in the house, it is EASILY lost or broken.

I'll give you an example of both in the same instance. We have a client we did early last year which has 3 young boys, and we installed a system and used an RC5000i for control. About a month later, we get a call from the client requesting a new remote because the original had gotten lost. So we delivered and tested a new remote, and in the process did some touch-up on the system.

We pulled the rack out to access the rear of the equipment, and lo and behold, guess what we found? A broken mess of plastic and electronic circuit boards that used to be an RC5000i. On further inspection, we find one of the blank plates near the top of the rack missing screws, and the screws that were there were very loose.

Seems one of the kids stepped on the remote during a fight with one of his siblings, and decided to hide the evidence in the one place no one in the family would look, or could to look. Inside the equipment rack.

JJP

Bruce,
I always connect analog cables to my sources. I do so after running across a DVD that would not output a signal on the digital output! It is a Toshiba Surround demo disc, and one track HAS to have good ol' RCAs for you to get sound.
Yes, zone 2 does not work with digital inputs on the 3802. One reason I do not like Denon is all the little incidental notes they have in the manuals. Somewhere in there it actually says that zone 2 needs an analog input.

Echoslob,
What the heck does your name mean?

Yes, you can use the unused surround amps for zone 2. The menu choice is "surround" or "zone 2." I have connected nine sets of speakers with Niles impedance matching volume controls set to x8 or x16, depending on the output level needed, and all was fine.

I don't understand what you are saying about the 5803's discrete on/off for zone 2. Let's just conclude that it is different from the 3802. On the 3802, there is one power command that turns off the whole mess (WAIT! I have never hit OFF when the remote is in the "multi" mode. Perhaps the receiver responds by silencing the multi output. I don't know and did not see the little damn note if there is one.)

And when you turn it on, both zones are on the inputs they were on when you turned the mess off. This can be disconcerting if you want to listen to a romantic CD in the middle of the night, but the pool speakers had been blasting the all-Metallica station during the party that afternoon... that is exactly what you would get when you power up.

Sorry, but I do not understand your edit. So many words, so little punctuation.

Ernie

I have found that when the customer has kids the best results are when we keep it as simple as possible when using a second zone from a Denon.

We generally use a basic control panel (such as Xantech) in the second zone that allows volume up/down, zone on/off and source selection.

The panel is then combined with an infra red sensor that allows control of the other components.

This way the parents can have full control in the main zone (perhaps using a Pronto or likewise) and then full control upstairs either using a different remote or the same one with the remote setup using a second zone selection page with aliases to all the source controls, avoiding problems with master(zone 1) volume control and amp source switching (Am I making sense?)

This setup stops any kids messing about with the sources on zone 2 ie changing the track or disc on a CD when someone is listening to it on zone 1.

Some may think it is a waste of a control panel when basic commands of sources could easily be implemented but believe me only a couple of months ago when I was demonstrating a multiroom system to a customer their kids kept pressing buttons on the other panels throughout the house resulting in discs and tracks stopping and starting which ended up is a screaming match between parents and kids (probably wish they hadn't bought the system - not a pretty sight!!).

Can remote panels be set up with access lock-out passwords? This could prevent unauthorized use.

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com

Echoslob,
What the heck does your name mean?

Funny I was going to ask you the same? :)

Ernie let try this again. My Denon has 2 Multizone's 1 and 2 plus the main for a total of 3 zones. BTW when I originally hooked mine up as you did I had the same results with the patio coming on after a shut down and it was a PITA to shut it off while leaving the main zone on.

1 and 2 work totally different. I just climbed up the second floor in my A/V room to verify this. Yes the only room in my house with 2 floors is the A/V room. I lied in my other post. Switch 1 and 2 and it will be accurate. Zone 1 is the preout and zone 2 use's one of the surround amps as you stated. Let me try to explain in a different format and I will type slower. :) For the purpose of time instead of typing multi-zone I will refer to them as Z1 and Z2. Main will be the main. LOL



1. Z1 has a separate descrete On and Off totally separate from the main. The main does NOT need to be on for this to work. It also has discrete source and volume controls. It is really like 2 receivers in one box.

2. Z2 uses one of the surround amps therefore you need to diasable one of the surrounds in the setup to use this amp for a second zone. It has a toggle on and off and I believe (not 100%sure) the main unit needs to be turned on first.

3. Z1 when shut off and main unit turned back on it will not start up on it's own. Z2 when shut off and main unit turned on will start back up. Very annoying as you know.

4. Denon tells me Z1 will work with Digital inputs. I will confirm this later on. Z2 I know will not because I had the same results as you. No audio until I hooked up analog.

If Z2 was the only way I could use multi-zone I agree with the pros it is not user friendly at all and a second receiver is by far the better solution. Z1 however works great albeit an amp is needed but it makes easy use of the same sources.

I hope this made it clear Ernie.

Now about the name. I had to leave you hanging so you would read the whole post. :) I got tired of using nicks with numbers at the end because the ones I wanted were taken. I fool around with A/V and sats. Dishnetwork equipment is called Echostar. I tried a lot of variations but they were all taken. I looked around my office and noticed what a slob I was and hence "Echoslob". And thats the rest of the story. :)

Several years ago, I set up a multi=zone system using a clients Yamaha receiver with zone 2 out and an amplifier. It had a second small remote just to control zone 2. It worked flawlessly and was a snap to set up. I subsequently became a Yamaha dealer mainly to take advantage of this feature only to realize that Yamaha had discontinued the old system in favor of the completely confusing system that other manufacturers were using. Does anyone know anything about this?

It is really amazing why they even bother to add a mulit-zone when you have to jump through hoops to make it work properly.

Thon,
I bet that was the 2095. That was THE SOLUTION. They have some receivers now that do the same thing, starting, I think, with the 1000. By the way, if you learn the discrete tuner preset codes from the RXV1, they will give you random access into almost all current Yamaha tuners, even if the factory remotes do not have those buttons. Try it -- several months ago I uploaded a ccf for that very thing.

cmo,
all the 3802s I have put in are multi-room, so we have to use local speaker-level volume controls...keypads would turn all rooms up and down at the same time. We do not even put the zone 2 volume fnctions on the Pronto to avoid problems.

Larry,
with two customers, I gave them a semi-hidden screen on their Pronto for adjusting the zone 2 volume. A blank button led to a screen with explanations, which led to a screen with the zone 2 volume. The latter two screens are hidden, so they have to be accessed by page jumps and cannot be seen from the Device drop-down. This was hidden enough for them.

Echoslob,
I think I see how your system works. The 3802 looks to be the same as a 5803 without z1.


I have only once sold a 3802 without a Pronto. All of the 3802s I have put in are multi-room, with wall-mount volume controls, so I do not even put the z2 volume commands in the Pronto. The last thing we need is the kids putting the volume controls at 10%, then cranking up the z2 volume to get sound, only to have little wisps of smoke coming out of the Denon and the volume controls. This concept follows a Ham radio guideline that I first heard in 1968: tune for minimum smoke.

I include these commands in the Pronto:
a.in the z2 screen, there is a "House Silent" command (z2 to VID AUX, an unused input) so the patio can be silenced without irritating Dad, who is watching a video in the theater room
b.the z2 screen's OFF command shuts down the entire system, including the theater room.
c.in the home screen, there is a "Main Silent" command (main to VID AUX plus the rest of the system shutdown except Denon OFF) so that Dad can kill the audio and video when he is done, but leave the patio on
d.the main OFF macro switches main and z2 to VID AUX and turns everything off. That way, when the system is turned on, there is no sound or picture until chosen.

The only drawback, which has not been an issue yet, is that a and b require the operator to be conscious. This is a bit of a pain to learn to do; I have a new programmer and he still does not have that thinking etched on the backside of his forehead so he can roll his eyes up and see it; but it is just soooooo effective!

Ernie

Can remote panels be set up with access lock-out passwords?

I just had an EEE-vile idea of how to create a sort of labyrinth or maze to hide a command. It could be hacked, but the question is whether the kid will put in the time to do so.

On a Pronto, put an innocent-looking small blank button.

That button jumps to a hidden page with a number pad.
One of the numbers jumps to another hidden page (or even better, a button without borders, the same color as the background, so invisible, jumps to another hidden page).

All the other buttons jump to Home, or maybe have the buttons jump to different panels just to confuse a hacker who is not so dedicated as to make a list of what happens with each button.

Do this several times.

Have a page that says YOU FOUND IT! with a bmp or something so they will think this is the end of the maze, but then have an invisible button that will take them to the command you are hiding.

If the kids just have to break in, they can, but if they don't know where they are going, maybe they won't bother.

Ernie

ERNIE,

I just got off the phone with Denon. Exactly what you said above is correct.

"Echoslob,
I think I see how your system works. The 3802 looks to be the same as a 5803 without z1."

He also said to shut the second zone off exactly as you state by switching to an unused source. The only reason I was going to use the 3802 for this guy was because I thought it had the same type zones as my 5803. I am going to rethink this out now that I know it won't work as planned. Close but not exact. I may end up using a second receiver after all. Then I have the sharing of source issues. Never a dull moment :(

Echo, it should no big deal really to share sources.

Just make sure you use the digital connections from DVD/CD players to the main receiver, and analog connections to the secondary receiver.

On devices that only have analog audio outputs, be sure to use something like the Tributaries "buffered Y". Some components you can get away without using them, but some cause the signal to be distorted when using regular "Y" connections.

Hope that helps. If you have any more concerns, let me know,

JJP

Thanks John. I see why you guys don't even bother with this stuff with all the hassles. I wrongly assumed that all Denon's worked the way mine does.

John, I have a follow up question to your comment about using a buffered Y connector.

I have a Denon 3300 AV receiver, a quite new Sony VCR player, a Sony DVD player, and 2 Mitsubishi TV's. I use the receiver and one of the TV's as my HT system, and the second TV is in my bedroom.

In order to allow me to view the DVD and VCR on the TV in my bedroom, I am using a cheap, manual AV selector and RCA cable from the selector to the bedroom TV. The DVD player has 2 sets of outputs, so one set is hooked up to the AV receiver, and one (RCA) set is hooked up to the AV selector. The VCR only has one set of RCA outputs, so I am using inexpensive Y-splitters to allow me to hook one output to the AV receiver and one output to the AV selector.

So, everything works great except that when I wish to view the VCR on my HT television, the AV selector must be switched to the VCR. If it is switched to the DVD, then I get a scrambled signal on the HT TV. This is quite confusing to me since I would imagine that the Y-splitter properly splits the signal, and that the HT receiver and TV would not be affected by how the AV selector is arranged.

I hope that my description is adequate to understand the issue. Would some type of "buffered Y connector" help with this issue? If so, what kind exactly.

Thanks very much for any comments that you might have.

By the way, I am also using the second zone feature on the receive, hooked up to an amp that powers two pairs of speakers. By diligently planning my remote (using a Radio Shack remote and JP-1), the whole system works great. Without the remote being finely tuned, I agree that the whole second zone feature would be cumbersome for most people to operate.

Chazworth

Well, your 'Y'ing video. He was refering to the audio signal sounding distorted if you share sources with some gear. Gear with shorting outputs will distort the other feed when either powered down or sources switch.

Again, audioplex technology makes these...called the 'Buffy'. Normally, it's as simple as a 10 k resistor inline with the center conductor.

For video, you don't want to 'y' the signal, get a video DA.

Matt:

You will have to forgive my ignorance, but what is a "video DA" (and where available)?

Thanks.

Chazworth