When I read this, I became angry. CEDIA is looking for ways to raise revenues, or CEDIA members are trying to think of more ways to make it a "Good Ole' Boys" club.
What next? Will a showroom be mandatory?

I have met many CEDIA certified installers who I wouldn't trust to install new batteries in a flashlight! Education is good, but you have to admit, there is no substitute for experience-- experience from someone who knows what they're doing. The CEDIA certification gives a false sense that the installer is qualified. Any beginner could pass a CEDIA certification test by studying a few simple concepts in a quickie course. That doesn't qualify him to be a technician. All it really does is give him the sense that he deserves to be overpaid, skill or no skill.

CEDIA has lost sight of what is important. How about using your clout to talk some sense into manufacturers, CEDIA? Educate those morons! If you want to set some requirement standards, certify products that meet our needs (discretes).

In my opinion, CEDIA has dropped the ball completey when it comes to the manufacturers. They don't deserve my $500.00 becuase they haven't earned it! Now they want more? I'll tell you where they can stick their certificate!

Really enjoying this thread. It's mostly productive and I hope CEDIA is paying attention.

Let's step back for a moment and look at this from another perspective

So many people are looking for standards. Can any of you think of an industry that changes standards more quickly than this one? Furthermore, can you think of an industry that has to accomodate more differing standards than this one?

I would argue that the lack of instituting standards is a major part of what keeps this industry always on it's toes. Things are constantly changing. The best stuff is rising to the top, the garbage is shoved to the bottom. It can be a good thing

Let me give you a nice example. The electrical industry,-- which absolutely needs standards of course as saftey is the primary concern for any installation-- is steeped in laws, regulations, codes, etc. and as a result changes come at a snails pace.

People with their standards of installation, materials used, and tools applied, become reluctant to accept change. It then turns out that you have many levels of people that have to be thoroughly convinced and see eye to eye before something becomes accepted. Take GFCI circuitry. Even though it was a proven technology, it took over a decade for municipalities, contractors, code regulators, educators, and manufacturers to come together on a concept that saves lives! They are going through this again with AFCI technology (although the line is a little more fuzzy there).

I would like to think that as long as the overall installation for AVAD doesn't pose any significant safety risks, standards and regulations will be kept low and allow the things that drive the industry onward and upward and growing at a pace that benefits everyone, manufacturer, distributor, installer, and consumer alike.

Companies that do their best to run a respectable company and maintain trained installers will excel and continue to be successful. They're good efforts will lead to more work, more profits, and better pay for employees.
Companies that do not do their best will develop poor reputations and educate the consumer that you get what you pay for. They then will have to shape up or they won't be able to stay in business.

The best thing to do for the industry is to allow the economic forces to continue our desire to improve. Standards will come and standards will go. We don't have to agree on them at any point we just have to understand and trust that in every case, it is a simple matter of the fittest being able to survive and continue for as long as it can.

I must object. The "best stuff rising to the top" is laughable. The most profitable stuff rising to the top is more likely. If it is more profitable to create junk and pump it into the hands of the mis-informed consumer, that is what will happen in this machine we call the land of the free.

I like that CEDIA is at least talking to the government about the regulations that are being placed upon our industry. The government is slowly addressing our industry and if we do not talk to them with a unified voice, we will be leaving our businesses in the hands of that wonderful mis-informed government. Is there another way for us to direct the way our industry is licensed and controlled?

I don't know about you, but I do not like the direction our state regulators have been going with the "limited energy" industry. We are treated like an add-on to the electricians' board, and many of us have stated how we feel about the a/v knowledge of the vast amount of electricians we have encountered.

IMHO we are lucky to have so many of our colleagues speaking out for us and I will continue to support CEDIA. If your voice is not represented, then I might suggest you get involved and speak out where you can make a difference.

My main concern is that Cedia just remains a useful advisory board and does not mutate into a full blown regulatory body within which all must belong before we can obtain licensing.

My schedule is too busy now for me to respond but during my "coffee breaks" I am keeping up with this thread and no one has taken on Rich's points point by point. I do hope to get to it but it will probably have to wait till next week. He has many thoughtful observations that the overflow of hostilility here has still to address. Since the attention of one of those who is designing these tests and courses has been reached it might be a good idea to make specific objections and specific suggestions. Venting and ragging have their place and I certainly do my share but I do wish someone who has a bit more time than I do these two days would take on each of Rich's arguments in a systematic way.

Anyone who wishes to help program the new Ashly Protea 24 x24 or has a module please feel free to e-mail me. Anyone with any modules for NEC HT-1100s, LG 15,17,10,and 30 inch LCDs please contact me. LG 42 inch plasmas, and NEC 61 inch. I have to control 74 of these beasts in total and get this commercial audio system to work by Monday when the Red Sox open and lose to the dreaded Yankees.

Alan

I think CEDIA certainly talk the talk. They promote the virtues of teaching Techies how to run a business. But when it comes to some od their members walking the walk, I am not so sure about this. It seems that a fairly large proportion of companies that I have come across, who have gone belly up, dissapered overnight or run off with customers deposits are CEDIA members. I would love to know how they are being taught to run a business. The arrogance never stops amazing me!

This is not the DIY enthusiasts' section, there are plenty of crusty old vets and passionate pros here that are trying to raise the bar for this industry right alongside yourself and Mr. Lepper.


As it is, many of us are concerned that this will not be built into a full fledged campaign by CEDIA to promote the industry and it's current members, but more likely it will be at the forefront of a marketing campaign for the Best Buy/Magnolia HT roll out in each market.

Those of use that were involved in retail operations with car audio divisions during the 90s remember the promise of the MECP program. One of my friends was on the original comittee and this was going to be the definitive way to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Fast forward a few years from the inception and every Circuit City or Best Buy install bay had a wall full of them because the national chains struck a deal with MECP and decided that it was the perfect marketing tool to advertise that their techs were "trained and certified" which gave the public the impression that they should trust the the fresh out of high school, low wage crews to work on their cars. The test remained the same, but in the case of CC each employee got a study book AND a half day study course that described the questions in detail, and then they took the test open book and got to use their notes from the class. My installers had the book, but no class, and their test was not open book.


We need ALL of the tests to be difficult to pass, I have more thoughts on this that I will share below.


The architects, builders, consultants, consumers, etc. still do not have a clue what this CEDIA is, so the fact that a company is or is not certified by CEDIA holds little value to them at this point in time.

Even worse, many members of the residential construction community do not even consider this to be a trade. I don't know how many times i need to sell my services to people who think they should just buy everything at big box retailers and have their delivery/installers "put it in".

Andy and the others have made a dent in the extreme high end design and building community in the largest markets, but in my opinion, THIS is what we need from CEDIA across the board in all markets...


I don't want IBEW inspired bureacracy any more than anyone else, but if my State (IL) joined the others that require licensing, it may actually help things in my opinion.

Part of my desire to see this would be the ability to apply pressure to the the distributors and manufacturers to keep them from selling to unlicensed dealers. As it seems, there are way too many from outside the trade that have accounts at the distributors, and our manufacturers keep deciding that they need broader distribution for growth, so they set up shop at places where custom electronics should not be sold.

Then eliminate the Installer I certification which has been called too easy by nearly everyone I have spoken with. It sounds like Installer II test truly determines the top individuals in the industry.

I propose that CEDIA changes the Installer Certification into a single certification. Make the current Installer I test a pre-test with the same criteria it currently holds, except the Certification status. The same CEU value with the same expiration criteria, and add the ability to avoid being moved to provisonal membership until the expiration of the CEUs gained from the pre-test or the passing of the next test.

I would be more comfortable with the "Certified Installer" and "Certified Company" status if the test currently called "Installer II" is passed by one or more members of staff.

If you want to keep the "Cedia Certified Dealer" list pure and free of the lowest common denominator type installers, then this will be a good step toward keeping those companies out of the "Certified Dealer" list while providing real value to the small companies that built CEDIA and the industry as a whole by investing hundreds of man hours each year on training and advancing the standards and practices of this young industry.


I have been to your Silicon Valley update classes, and find your perspective to be invaluable. I would like to see you around here more often as a contributor.

In addition, I think that there are enough pros here that this can be considered a decent barometer of the feelings of the people out in the field for you to consider in your position within CEDIA.

Certification has been a feverish debate here on the CI Lounge, and plenty of us are concerned about training installers and designers for Best Buy/Magnolia and others to recruit, with CEDIA actually generating a call list for local managers to use in building their crews.

I would like to see repeated headhunting of CCI or CCD employees away from CEDIA member companies considered as an offense that can result in strong penalties including revocation of CEDIA priveleges and/or elimination from CEDIA altogether with the forced removal of all CEDIA, CCI, and CCD icons from the companys' marketing materials, proposals, and showrooms.

Ultimately, I think that many of us would like to see the CEDIA certification become something that is a true indicator that the home entertainment and integration company that an architect or builder has referred or that a client has chosen to work with is among the very top in their field.

-Rick.

P.S. I sent Rich and Alan an e-mail with this letter and my direct contect info, including my cell number. Anyone else that wishes is welcome to contact me regarding this matter off board via e-mail, mine is listed in my profile.

When I was a student at DeVry where I studied electronics, I had an old sage of a professor who suggested looking into an organization like CEDIA. He described a nice community of people who networked and shared ideas and experiences and maybe got together over coffee each month.

Fast Forward- Almost 10 years ago I went to work for a company who had a CEDIA decal on their door. They were just starting in A/V and I helped to get them where they wanted to be. I asked about the CEDIA membership... I wanted to know more... No good answers... I rocked the installs.. Worked hard through sickness and injury.

They hired a few good guys, and ALSO hired people right out of jail... Right out of jail with no experience... And sent them out with whoever and wherever.

I could have passed out the first second and third time these guys took off their long sleeve shirts in a customers home where we were doing security and A/V only to be greeted by fully cuffed prison tat's... And they weren't of Strawberry Shortcake either.

One guy I had to take with me was about 50 lbs underweight, and he would pass out here and there... NICE!

I eventually left, started my own business, and FINALLY got to go to the CEDIA shows... I never signed up to be a member... I didn't want anybody to mistake me for that other company with the decal on their door...

Although I'm sure everybody would have been great if the owner were a certified installer.

Would still rather have CEDIA representing my interests than Wesley!!
Sorry, but someone Had to say it!
Iain

Granted, this is a small demographic, but there sure does seem to be a whole lot of unhappy CEDIA members out there.

I think CEDIA has had the best intentions... As long as they aren't into strong arming... It seems that it's not too far off. I have no problem with their programs, and am certain they can help people. I've taken at least a dozen paid for classes at te show, a couple I took 2 years in a row I liked them so much. I just feel that many companies are past the need for such an installer on the crew.

Honestly, my biggest problem with them is their keeping Indianapolis as the primary location for the major show in September.

Honestly, they have outgrown the little town, and It's time to move it to a bigger city. The attendees will pay the extra fare to stay in a larger city. you already have people traveling ~40 miles to stay in a hotel...

This is the last year at Indy. Cedia is traveling West. Denver, I think.

Normally I just watch but having been through the never ending certification wars in another industry, I just couldn’t help myself.

I started in the computer biz in the late 70’s. The IBM PC hadn’t been invented yet, and Vinton Cerfs paper on TCP/IP was still pretty new stuff. No certifications, almost no books. By the 90’s certification was a big, money making, industry. It became hard to get a job without a cert. But it only took money to get certified. No experience, no “feel” for the industry. By the end of the 90’s many employers no longer cared if you had a certification, they wanted to know what experience you had. Maybe CEDIA, with some help from the competent folks, can get it right, maybe. It would be a shame to go through that all over again.

Just one other thought. If you are on a construction site and poking holes in peoples framing, I think you’re doing construction. I think it would be better for the industry as a whole if state licensing of the construction portion only was required. I think it’s a good thing to have to learn about acceptable business practices and the construction and lien laws of the state you do business in. California and Arizona both require 4 years experience in the trade before you qualify for a license. This doesn’t weed out all the dishonest or incompetent people. But licensing gives the consumer an avenue for recourse, which provides some incentive for not screwing up in the first place.

MarioR

Good point

I believe that CEDIA Expo is moving to Denver for 2006 ONLY, and that is due to a conflict with the Indianapolis Colts who have a home game that weekend. CEDIA Expo needs the space of the RCA Dome for the show, so it's Go West for that year.

Eric