I have toyed with the idea of teaching a course and it is a real problem. You will get too large a standard deviation of the knowledge base for the individuals attending. First course on grounding I ever took, the instuctor taught vector analysis, including the math, to prove eddy currents traveled from send to receive. 2 people in the class understood what he was doing and even they fell asleep ( no, I was not among the two. They were the ones who had EE degrees. )TCP/IP protocol is 5 inches think? How much of it would go over the heads of 95% of a class in networking? How many people here understand that there is no difference between hex, decimal and binary save format? Anyone know what a bitwise opperand is? Doesn't everyone know how to perform binary arithmatic?

You would think that technical courses would provide advanced material. I once took a Russ Hershellmann advanced home theater course and the first question asked was on calibrating a $300 receiver. People want real world solutions and too many of us have absolutely zero technical abilities. . Technical courses such as your video calibration really require hands on use of test gear. How are you going to do that in a hotel enviorment and a class of 160? If the course were on Visio or Photoshop one might succeed as all you would need was a lap top. But if you are going to learn about set up of a projector you need to sit in front of a projector and calibrate it. Who is going to donate 75 projectors and take the risk that someone will be electricuted when they touch the power supply by mistake.

Honestly, I think too many instructors, even the famous names teach just to get the free hotel and plain ticket. Then there are the others who use their course as a marketing scheme for their company's products or sevices. . And for those that do try it is really a difficult enviorment to impart information. I think Russ does a pretty good job considering the wide variety of knowledge he is dealing with. But you are not going to be able to design a state of the art theater unless you are willing to read all the boring books on accustics and then go out and get some real world experience. The real problem I have with CEDIA courses is not so much that the promise more than they can deliver as much as they no longer permit anyone from teaching a free class. Once upon a time that occured. But no longer. Everything has a price and it is only about the money.

Alan

I would like to see some tangible accreditation to our industry, but not if it means I will be pimped for $500 per employee, per test to get there just so the noobs, trunkslammer, and hack crews that BB/Magnolia, CompUSA and CC hire during their national rollouts will have the same accreditation.

It was said above that the "Installer I" test is a breeze, and I have been hearing this since the first sessions.

Basically, the Installer I allows anyone with a modicum of intelligence and a decent attention span to sit through an intensive pre-test, then pass a "gimme" test. Then they appear on paper to be as well trained as any of us that helped create the industry and have real world experiences to draw upon to help us get out of trouble and provide impeccible service, and real value, to our clients.

Back when car audio was in it's heyday 10-15 years ago, MECP sold out and gave "gimme" testing so BB and CC could advertise nationally that every shop in every store had MECP certification.

This made the MECP certificates hanging on the walls of the real shops that did the great work virtually worthless... but the big box store managers knew who to recruit to get their stores fully certified!!

This is another way for CEDIA to increase their annual budget and profit once more from the proliferation of the industry, and should be viewed as such.

For a minute when I was skimming this thread I thought you were talking about BOSE. Something that cost s a lot of money. Something that average consumers think is good becuase they are told that, not because it actually is. And for what you pay you get crap in return.
Yep sounds like BOSE to me. Wounder how much these executives at cedia get payed a year. Taking Money from small companies is a new format of greed and in my opinion one of the worst.

I feel your vibe there a little, but the average public knows what Bose is...
CEDIA only seems to be important to itself.

When was the last time a client/builder/designer/architect actualy asked if your company had any CEDIA ties?

When was the last time you got anything but a clueless expression and a polite head nod when so meitoned that you have been a CEDIA member for a decade??

CEDIA is really only valuable to industry noobs to learn other places to buy everything wholesale, and to take classes geared toward teaching them what to do with what they can now buy.

In other trades, you either have to apprentice with a journeyman, or take intensive hands-on classes at a community college to become fully accredited in that field.

Paying attention and taking notes for a half day or full day pre-test class is not exactly learning a trade, and if that's the way they are administered, then they don't mean SH*T to me.

When was the last time a client/builder/designer/architect
actualy asked if your company had any CEDIA ties?

NEVER!!!
We take the time and pay to get certified, which only costs us more money afterwards for C.E. and does nothing for us in return. Can any of you guys even keep up with your C.E? The way I see it you have to attend EXPO every year just to get enough classes completed for your C.E. I can't do that. Fortunately I have a ton of work to do and there is no time for working vacations. I could take manufacturer courses in my area, but for the points given for that ( I think like .375 of 1 point) I think I'd have to attend classes about once a week for the year. I was excited to see certification when it came about a few years ago and was quick to get in line for it, but I'm realizing now I wasted a lot of time and money and will have to continue doing so if I want to be "certified" by CEDIA.
Just my two cents worth, ya'll take care!

Ladies and Gents,

I believe a major point has been missed here. It seems that many think that Certification can mean something, if the Certifying Agency has good reliable standards. I believe this is only of use if those certified have their jobs inspected on a regular basis.

Let's look at another area, Electricians. Here's a group with a specialized skill set. Yes, many in this forum refer to them as Cable pullers, but they can have some highly specialized training. An electrician gets his license after taking a test. Much like Cedia certification. Does this mean that I should trust any electrician to wire a service entrance for a business with 3 phase power at 1000Amps? Electricians in most places in the country are licensed for a specific type of work.

If we apply this to Cedia... their certification is only meaningful if they offer different areas of expertise, with meaningful testing requirements. This would allow the little guy who truly knows the business to still prove his worth to customers over a chain that trains employees to the lowest common denominator.

The other issue missing here is oversight. Just because someone is trained in the right way to do something, doesn't mean it gets done that way! Until some method of inspection is placed in such a process of licensing, there are no teeth to get rid of the individuals who can pass the tests, but don't put the information to use. Electricians regularly fail inspections, for a variety of reasons. Without some watchdog, I think any certification or licensing is of little use.

I'm afraid CEDIA reminds me of MECP( I was one of the first certified, before they had 'training books' and classes you could 'buy' to become 'certified'!).

I became critical when you could go to Florida, spend a week (and some money) and become an 'Installer first class' with NO experience whatsoever! Sounds a lot like the path CEDIA is taking!

I'm not CEDIA certified, nor will I ever be. I prefer to spend the money on tools to make my installations go smoother.

If I want hype, and a piece of paper, I'l go to Monster 'U'!!!

CEDIA started out with good intentions(like MECP). Now it seems more like another marketting ploy.

I'm supprised Noel Lee hasn't tried to sue them for 'stealing' his 'idea'!!

I was a CI before they came along, and I'll be one after they're gone!

If they expect to survive, they better stick to BB for they're income.

I'm not buying it.

'Smoke and mirrors' never really did interest me. I don't have time for it.

I've got a job to do!

So does this mean that if I am a CEDIA certified Installer I can do anything? and all the Money that I have spent as well as the money the company has spent sending me to the factories for real hands on training and getting a certificate arent as good?

I have walked out of several classes at CEDIA expo due to repetative information, sat the the grounding class..learned a little there, then went to the networking class and heard almost the same info plus a little computer talk, now goto wholehouse wiring solutions class to hear more grounding for a better part of the class....Come on..I only get so much ground wire on a spool.

I read the news a few weeks ago and since have asked a few of our client what they think about CEDIA....ever get the deer in the headlight look??? They never heard of it, dont care to go look it up either. I think that I can remember 1 customer asking about it several years ago, but didnt have much to say, think he saw it on our brochure.

I think that CEDIA has its good and its bad, but requiring companies to have a certified installer to be a full member is aking a bit much. this means I need to take my state required testing and continuing education classes and pay the state, now add in the CEDIA testing and continuing classes PAY them as well for what a cute little ribbon to wear if I goto expo? I guess they need more money to throw at the bose court thing

Glack

Cedia is a private enterprise, marshaling itself into a wanabe government bureaucracy. Cedia Like all such institutions of the past, have all come to no good, usually through internal corruptions. Their current tactics are nothing short of attempted blackmail, by trying to instill an escalating amount of fear in the eye of the public regarding “installers” who are not cedia certified. I for one would not give a rat’s ass for a cedia certificate; I have been in this business for the better part of 27 years. Long before a lot of those “Experts” hung their shingle on the wall, I was hanging out with the folks who invented a lot of that must have specialized only can get it thought cedia knowledge. Don’t get me wrong, I am always searching for additional knowledge and am willing to take classes I feel will benefit my business. But I am very insulted by Cedias comments and tactics.

I like the idea of weeding out the hacks, but who's paying for these inspectors??
The local government pays for the inspectors for structural, electrical, and plumbing, and they require building permits to help subsidize the expenses. It is a revenue source for the city, county or township that issuesthe permits, but the major reason they get involved is because when construction isn't sound, or when plumbing or electrical systems aren't up to standard, injury, death, and major property damage are the result.

When CI goes bad, the plasma is off center on the mantel, the speaker holes are cut into a cavity filled with duct work or plumbing, or the cable jack is an inch lower than the receptacles in the same room... nobody dies from inept a/v or data cabling, or poor system designs.

BTW, do you want to have to pull a permit on each job to pay for these inspections??


Hmmm.... just about anyone can get an electrical license, but to become a fully accredited Master Electrician, you have to put serious time in and go through a series of tests over time. With CEDIA, if he studied really hard and paid attention during the class, an insurance salesman or garbage collector could become "certified" as an entry level installer.

CEDIA's model is the system's contracting industry where the NSCA has training towards certification. Most commercial bids require at least one certified technician on staff and that a certified programmer do the programming for the specified control system. In the commercial world, where projects are large and involve really large sums of money, consultants rule and as they decide the rules of the bid there is an enforcement mechanism that does not require any government agency ( Strange how government involvement is seen as a posative when you would think with all the red dye covering this nation it would be the opposite. Ever look at the results of government liscensing on the security industry where it is required? Has it made any difference with respect to the safety of the end user? )

I have throught that this foolishness comes from the influence of consultants such as Fred Ampel from the system's contracting industry who believe this paradigm works in the consumer world. Supposedly Fred Ampel also has a contracting firm and you would think he would have noticed that pro gear is built better ( metal parts as opposed to plastic and lots of heat sinks or fans ), includes more expensive balanced topology and generally sounds OK ( as sound quality is completely unimportant in the pro world but reliability is everything. ) He also may have noticed that you EQ all commercial jobs but only the very large consumer jobs. Marketing consultants have made similar points--or did at the first CEDIA managment conference. The only issue is that CEDIA has not spent much money, evidently, on making public awareness of its brand name. In theory this could change. UL is private but has a public imprimatur. More importantly, systems contracting jobs can be really large and even at reduced margins they can bring in big profits ( would you work on 8-10 gross profit of 20 million? ). Given the dollar amounts there is a incentive for the developer to hire consultants and for consultants to want to ensure that the contracting frim's bidding have some minimal competance.
But in the consumer world no such pressures exist. The client wants it to work--but only well enough ( to wit Control4 or the URC remote that is programmed with toggles on the power on button and the same toggles on the off button and you tell the client to press the ON button on the TV page if he has no picture to turn on the CATV box ). Price pressures--which exist in the system's contracting world too- mandate that the least expensive solution is the best. But ever notice that every commercial product has a serial port and bidirectional protocol? Consultants WILL NOT SPECIFY PRODUCTS THAT CANNOT BE CONTROLLED. Who is doing that for the consumer industry?


Systems contracting invovles very large projects such as eductational facilities and stadiums. It also will include consultants with engineering degrees who will engineer star ground paths, specify wiring paths and gages and consultants who will design the various AV subsystems. They are mega-dollar jobs. We are doing a small commercial job of this type ( 3-400k ) and they involve rigging for lights, speakers and video equipment, hanging arays of speakers in areas with other subsystems so some knowledge of comb filering is necessary. Communications protocols need to travel longer distances than those in residential applications. Ironically, this used to be much more difficult before but is not so complicated now that IP based solutions are available.

I think Fred Ampel is a smart man. I have no idea if he is behind the push to certification but I have heard him make some of the arguments I provided above. Meaningful certification is good. So is keeping your finger nails clean and making sure you have no holes in your underware so your family will not be embarrassed if you get hurt and are sent to the hospital. But there needs to be a financial incentive for the costs of certification. There needs to be a benefit financially for displaying a CEDIA logo on your truck in terms of pubic awareness and belief that it has meaning. If I wanted a AA in EE I would go back to school and get a real EE degree. I think many in CEDIA believe what they are doing is the correct thing. But they need to spend much more money on public awareness. There is no way there will be meaningful distinction between an small to mid-size installtion firm and one in Walmart. The big discounter will buy his way in and CEDIA will happily take thier money and convey competance. This is why they are evil as their policies are intentionally designed to strategicly put you out of business.

Alan

This message was edited by Audible Solutionns on 04/02/05 08:01 ET.

CEDIA being said governing body is fine. The way it's being done is not.

No axe to grind, just not happy about how CEDIA is undertaking this issue. And I think honestly, there's no one here with an axe to grind, but rather many members who think the same thing. This is not the way to go.

I would propose it be done in a different manner, i.e.

Certification of a company BEFORE becoming a member.

The cost of certifcation to be included in the annual dues, rather than as an add-on charge.

For existing members, a certification exam could be offered online at NO fee to encourage those members to continue to be members in good standing. After all, these are the members who helped bring this organization into existance. Why extort money from them now, with threats of "will no longer be a member in good standing"?

Not going to happen though.

With the push of AVAD and Stampede and the likes, you will soon see builders being CEDIA certified, along with every box store that gets involved with installs.

I think it's a complete scam. I have less & less use & respect for CEDIA lately.

I've been in since Day 1 and it started off well, but it's morphed into something I don't need.

You'll now have guys like me who have doing CI since the 70's & 80's that are forced to jump through some relatively inconvenient & expensive hoops in order for the staff to be "professional". The guys on my staff could *teach* most CEDIA classes.

I feel that *I* helped the rise of CEDIA, and now even as the distinction of being a CEDIA member is being watered-down & generally de-valued, I'm being forced to go with the program or be kicked out of the "circle of trust".

I don't think the terms blackmail & extortion are too far off the mark. I know I was never consulted on the recent direction of "certification". And yes, the quotes are intentional.

About three yearsago, I spoke to a gentleman from CEDIA (Australia) and his words were,'As a Sole Trader' it probably wouldn't be of enough benefit to me to be a member of CEDIA. Refreshingly honest. Having been a CI for about 8 years and having attended many seminars and the like, listening to company reps with their self promotion and hype I'm the first to admit it bores me to tears, However!, I have ALWAYS learnt something, no matter how minor. Where I have learnt the most, however, has been simply standing around, talking to other Installers before, during lunch, and after the seminar itself.
Iain