I was asking The Man for his answer.

Ernie,

The answer is yes with a *. You can use most any emitter you want, but the two assignable ports on the back of our hub are 2.5mm, so you would need a 2.5mm male to 3.5mm female adapter in order to use another brand emitter. They are inexpensive and available online (Amazon). I use a pigtail version since the strain relief is usually a bit narrower.

I am working on a new hub that dealers will like for the Pro channel. It increases the ports from 2 to 6, (3.5mm), adds an ethernet port with PoE so you can drop the wall wart (has WiFi too), and an external antenna for longer range (for those racks and basement systems, plus it's SMA, so you can use a lead of higher gain antenna if needed). Lots of cool stuff for the integrator channel.

Brett

Brett,
how about visible flashers versus IR-only flashers? I think some visibles I've seen over the years have been an IR LED in series with a visible light LED, so they'd need a higher voltage than a single LED.

The 2.5 mm thing is funny because of a previous story. I don't know why you're using them, but my understanding from someone at URC was that when they had a few remotes that used them, it was by mistake -- URC engineering got OEM samples and tested everything out and everything was wonderful, but it did not occur to them to plug in older LEDs, so they missed the fact that the jacks were 2.5mm. I'll bet every installer here would see that looking at a plug from ten feet away.

Ernie,

I’m not fond of emitters that include a visible element.  Yes, this allows easy diagnosis, but I don’t like the blinking during normal operation. If necessary, one can use most cellphones as IR detectors and one can check the raw emitter with most VOM’s.

buzz,
just as I was asking The Man for his take on emitters of other companies, I was discussing Blink-IRs because they are out there. Plus, if you go to diagnose a system and you can't see any LEDs blinking, you have to get out your phone to check for actual IR anyway. Blink-IRs are only helpful for diagnosis, and only if you already know they are there.

What is the difference, if the answers are the same?

This works, too- using it on an installation to send IR to a few pieces (using the dual emitters and connect to the IR port on two others, with the 2.5mm-3.5mm adapter.

[Link: youdoitelectronics.com]

When URC still had 2.5mm jacks, the first question at training sessions was an angry "When are you getting rid of those stupid jacks???????????" and the trainer would just roll his eyes, then talk about something else.

There is no difference if the answers are the same. Are you telling me that you assume answers are the same from us and from the guy at the company? That kind of assumption can get you into trouble. I mean, it's reasonable to assume that Epson has documentation on their video processors, too, but... [Link: remotecentral.com]


That's exactly what was said.


This is the exact reaction you can expect when someone has made a mistake and doesn't want to talk about it. Marguerite is the one who let it slip at a training that URC had made an error.

Sorry guys, I was working from 7am-9pm last night, and didn't get time to see the latest posts.

Happy to go over any of this. I know Highfigh, and he knows his stuff. He's a great dealer, and I'd trust his answers, but I totally understand when someone wants something straight from the company.

In regards to IR flashers, no issue there we can drive an emitter with visual feedback and I have both in my house currently. I use a flasher on my TV that I typically cover with a boot day to day (so I can visually verify signals are firing when testing) and another that I plug into hubs when I am testing to make sure assignable ports are firing correctly. I agree that many homeowners don't like them if they are flashing all the time when the system is working properly and the devices are visible, but that's a personal preference.

In regards to the 2.5mm question, I asked this when I first started as well. I was told that the decision was made since they wanted to make sure someone wasn't sticking in a random emitter that wouldn't work right and cause an issue. This allowed Harmony to better control the experience and since most consumers would just be using the blasters that come in the box, no real issue in doing something different than the other control manufacturers. Although years back other companies were using 2.5mm and so I also think it was also just never changed since it isn't highly requested (I've asked CS to pull the logs in the past, and it is pretty minimal). I said okay, but was also thinking I've never really seen an issue with an emitter before.

So here's the best part. About 6 months ago I'm testing another company's HDMI switch with integrated app control. So I swap out the Key Digital HDMI balun to my TV with theirs, and use the IR output to plug in my existing emitter which is probably a Xantech because I needed a 3.5 to come out of the balun. So I start testing the unit, (which is a prototype from this company to be fair) and all of a sudden I smell this burning plastic smell. I rush over to check the switch and no issue there, but then I look back at the TV and the emitter cable is dangling as it has literally melted through the plastic shell of the emitter. In 18 years of installing systems, I've never seen that happen before. So I took it to the engineering team the next day and said okay, I still think it's rare, but I guess I can't totally call BS. Obviously, I don't think the issue was the emitter not being compatible since I've used it for years, I'm assuming the issue was on the board of the balun.

Anyways, like I mentioned, I am working on a new product we designed specifically for this channel, and it has 3.5mm jacks on it. I'm not sure if we will ever change the existing SKU as the requests overall are very low like I mentioned, but new products will have 3.5mm jacks on the back as I've been pushing that since I've been at Logitech. Most guys on our side just splice the emitter into a Cat cable if needed, or use an adapter if they are going into a balun or an existing job with a 3.5mm emitter already run, but again most of the time, they just use the blasters in the retail product, or the blasters and 4-head emitters included in the Pro model.

Hope that answers the questions a bit better than an eye roll from a trainer... ; )

Brett, I think Harmony's for what they are are pretty damned impressive, however I would use them more for small budget systems if you're products weren't sold at cost all over the internet. Sure, there is a pro version but it's not hard to see it's just an extended warranty in terms of value to the customer. A customer can shop brand new Harmony Elite is $229 on Amazon all day.

I understand Andrew, and I am working hard to combat retail pricing, but it's difficult this time of year. However, I have dealers that put out a couple of hundred Harmony systems a year, and do pretty well, because they are building systems, same as with anything else. They get in and out quickly, have fewer issues and callbacks, make higher net margin on their business because their labor is more profitable, and have happy clients that generate more referrals because more people can afford the systems. Plus many have a better work/life balance because there is less stress, and fewer cashflow issues because product is more affordable, and timelines on installs/payment are faster.

Here's a good article we did last year with CEPro. I got a ton of calls from dealers afterwords, that felt this article resonated with how they wanted to update their business. [Link: cepro.com]

They are just different ways of looking at the business, but I'm getting guys like JJ over at Digital Delight who have more than 400 Harmony remotes in the past year, and other dealers that still focus on their C4/Crestron systems, but understand that the market for a Harmony/Sonos/Lutron/Nest system is growing and far easier to sell, than brands the consumer hasn't heard of.

I used to think the same way so I get it, but when I got a chance to see what could be built with it, and how efficient the systems were to build I thought the opportunity was too good to pass up. While there are many things we are working to improve specific to our industry, there are many dealers who are already doing well and love the brand, the service level we provide, and the fact that we are adapting to the market. It's also why I am making a true Pro product now, with a hub that is dramatically different, and will never be sold at retail, so that should help for dealers looking for a truly differentiated product.

I always respect what any dealer wants to sell, but if you ever want to discuss the business model as a whole I am happy to. I tend to look at the full business (gross margin, returns, labor profit, truck rolls, unbilled programming, scalability, and manufacturer consumer demand generation, etc) and while product margin is important, it is only one piece of a successful business, especially one trying to scale.

Have a great weekend, and I appreciate the comment/feedback.

Brett, we appreciate frank discussions from the manufacturing side. Thank you for your contributions.

As with anything that can be shopped, who will do the set up for them? I haven't seen the sku card for programming an Elite, but it costs $75 for them to set up a Harmony 650, which is more than they charge for that remote.

Yeah I get it. I just don't particularly care for spending time on a proposal and then getting the "I can get it on Amazon" email. I don't have that with other products that I support like Control4.

I suppose it's an attitude change. From now on if I spec one, I'll just state up front that I sell and program only gear that I provide, and if they don't like it they can find someone else.

Brett, thanks for the input - great to have someone from such a large company actually post here. The Pro stuff sounds interesting. At the very least when I come across Harmony gear I might not have to spend time splicing 2.5 mm to 3.5 mm connections!

I use the adapters and so far, they have worked, although I'm not sure the cat hasn't chewed the cables. He's a Bengal and they like to use their teeth.

I don't sell TVs often, mainly because I don't have many clients who want to spend that much for something that will cost half as much in two years, but they seem OK with paying for the installation and the other stuff, so I can't complain- if they like a particular TV, I charge to pick it up and install it, plus parts. They're happy, they don't need a stranger in their house and I have keys or security codes for several homes, so they feel secure. I have a group of clients who refer me to their friends, family and other associates, so I don't need to hear the comments about getting it at Amazon or Beast Buy very often, fortunately. Usually, if they have gone somewhere else, they hand me the proposal and ask of it's reasonable & if I can match it. I had one proposal that included a Yamaha Aventage AVR and for streaming, the sales guy included two Sonos Connects and a Connect Amp, even though the AVR has MusicCast. I dumped the Sonos, included a WXC-50 and a WXA-50, which sound great and work very nicely, when grouped.

Brett- since we're discussing remotes and I think we discussed it during one of the phone calls- have you done anything about the ID2 code set for Yamaha products?