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Topic:
Odd HDMI/CEC anomaly (is there any other kind?)
This thread has 11 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Tuesday January 30, 2018 at 10:31
Craig Aguiar-Winter
Senior Member
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On my personal family room system I've had eveything running normally since I installed a Denon AVRx3400h a few months ago.



System ad it is now:

Sony KDL60W630B
Denon AVR-X3400H
PS3
PS4
Apple TV 3
WiiU
Android Box
Pro24r/Prolinkr (no direct IR from the remote, all emitters including TV)

A couple of weeks ago I was experimenting with ARC and running Netflix off the TV. Why? Just because. Figured at some point this crap may work reliably so why not try it out every now and then. Harmless experiment right? Haha. Insert witty life lesson metaphor here.

First some context.

As I set out to begin my adventure the TV asks to do a firmware update. I agree and perform the update. I then change the settings in the AVR and TV to use ARC. No sound. Silly me, it's on a non ARC HDMI input. Change inputs and still no sound. Was using an older HDMI cable that didn't support it. Changed the cable. ARC works. Played for a day and lost interest. But didn't change anything back.

Now for the anomaly.

I notice that when I come down in the mornings sometimes the Tv is still
on. The receiver is off. Usually a game system is left running and the Android is in all the time. It's as off as it normally gets so there's no point in blaming my kid for not turning it off. I do some investigation and learn that when you power up the receiver, it turns the TV on. It also turns the TV on when you power OFF the reciever. Now it's starting to make more sense as my power off macro is TV off, then receiver off and I see that immediately after the macro is complete the TV is powering up again.

No problem. Must be stupid CEC messing things up. Control was off on both the TV and receiver. Only ARC was enabled but we all know that ARC and CEC are some kind of maniacle Saimese twin.

So I turn off ARC and control on both devices. Also HDMI passthrough on the receiver is off (it always was). It's still happening. I remember that I'm still plugged into the ARC input on the TV so I switch it back to a non ARC HDMI input. Still happening. I change back to the old HDMI cable. The whole system is now in the same state it was before I went down the rabbit hole. IT'S STILL HAPPENING!!!

WTH? It's like CEC meets Maximum Overdrive.

I checked and rechecked the CEC/ARC/Bravia Sync settings and everything is off. I also unplugged and plugged back in both the TV and the receiver.

So I decide to move onto try some other devices. What it turns out to be is the Android box. If the Android box is on, and Kodi is opperating, then when I turn the TV off, it immidiatly turns on by it self.

Unplug Android or exit Kodi to main XBMC menu and it works fine. An easy work around is to turn the receiver off first, followed by the TV. Without the receiver on, CEC commands from the Android don't pass through. I did some research and the version of Kodi that I'm running isn't supposed to have CEC control, or at least you can't get into adjust it. I reprogrammed my remote to follow this adjustment and all is well but that didn't actually solve the issue, just worked around it.

Now this leaves me with some questions.

How with the HDMI CEC turned off on both the receiver and the TV, are they still passing commands through/responding to commmads?

What could have changed that made it happen now but not before I tried this out.

The only thing I can think of is that the firmware update I did on the TV has some kind of CEC back door. The reciever firmware is the same.

It seems to me that the problem, while instigated by the Android Box, is also because of the AVR and the TV.

The one common denominator is of course that HDMI is a train wreck but in all seriousness, this is very odd.

Thanks for the interest.

Craig.
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 2 made on Tuesday January 30, 2018 at 11:15
highfigh
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Check the settings for ALL devices and kill CEC, ARC, anything that could possibly cause this- if you have a Roku, turn off HDMI control and synch. I left CEC on with the bedroom Roku/TV without realizing it, might be a WBox thing (I decided to try one- it's OK)- can't change the aspect ratio and it sounds like crap.

Pull the power cord from the system and see if it goes back to semi-normal. I find that this is helping more often than I would like, lately. I have a customer who usually can't get the system to work when I'm not there but when I go, it works fine. Pissing me off and making me want to be a truck driver.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
OP | Post 3 made on Tuesday January 30, 2018 at 12:08
Craig Aguiar-Winter
Senior Member
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1,222
I already pulled the plugs on the TV, android and receiver and CEC is off on everything. I'll check again but I'm pretty certain it is off on everything.

It's definitely off on the TV and receiver.

This isn't a pressure situation thankfully as it's my own system and I have a work around but it's a good opportunity to tunel into this crap.

Truck driver is right.

During the design phase I now have a discussion with clients about the nature of HDMI and updates and the industry in general, and that I can't garautee that a manufacturer's product will do what it says, or if it does, that it will continue to do so. I tell them about all the good AND the bad. Way to build confidence, right? But I feel that people need to know the state of the industry and they seem to like straight up honesty. If they are not prepared then maybe they shouldn't have a big system. Anyway....

I don't think anyone should shame you for trying a WBox. We have to try new stuff. Infact I'm glad you mentioned it as I've been tempted but scared. Haha.
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 4 made on Tuesday January 30, 2018 at 13:20
Brad Humphrey
Senior Member
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1,355
It certainly sounds like the firmware update on the TV, is what broke the regular functionality.
Even thou you have CEC turned off in the TV, that is just the GUI telling you it has. Doesn't mean the actual device is turning off the CEC. It is one of those things that causes bugs in CE devices, when a manufacture doesn't do their due diligence in vetting operation.
Also concerning that this came from Sony but I have been seeing a lot of quarky stuff happening with Sony this last year.
Not happy about that since I have been a Sony supporter for a long time. Here in the US, if you have a defective Sony product (which I have been seeing a lot more of too) and it is over the 30 day exchange period; be prepared for a long warranty battle. 5 times last year I had to go thru this with customers (more times than I had to in many years prior... total). Each time took between 1-2 months to get warranty satisfaction. That is f^n unacceptable!
They seem to make it as hard & frustrating as they can, hoping the customer will just give up. And it isn't just Sony, all the TV manufactures seem to be doing this BS. Seen & heard stories last year with LG, Vizio, Samsuck, and a few others as well.

As far as your Android TV box.
Most all those little POS boxes are just that. Total Chinese junk that cause issues in systems they are installed in sometimes. If an Android TV box is required for something in a system, the best one to get is the Nvidia Shield. It is a proper CE device.
Unfortunately most people that get those boxes are doing so to stream things unethically. Which also means they will not pay the money for a proper device. Whenever someone presents one of these things to install in a system, I always warn them. but for most, the internet knows better :(
As long as they understand my time is money and if I have to spend hours troubleshooting 'their' POS little box, then they will pay or we will have a problem.
OP | Post 5 made on Tuesday January 30, 2018 at 13:42
Craig Aguiar-Winter
Senior Member
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1,222
I just checked and EVERY CEC feature I can access is "off", as it was before. I'm pretty convinced it's the firmware too because that is the only thing that isn't the same as it was before now.

And as far as the Android goes. I hate it. Haha. I will fully admit that I got it to watch movies. But it's such a pain to use I never use the stupid thing.
I can't be bothered.

I always give customers the Android speach about how it's not an actual thing created by a company and no two work the same. It's made by some guy in his basement or what have you and I can't gaurantee it will do anything good for the system.

I canceled cable a while ago and I just watch Netflix.
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 6 made on Tuesday January 30, 2018 at 21:48
buzz
Select Member
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2,453
In my opinion there is a chicken/egg issue. Turning the TV OFF first is logical, but it will immediately recognize that the receiver is still ON, and start its power up sequence. Iím never sure what the proper sequence might be. I try to minimize visual and audible blips during the shutdown sequence. Sometimes this means receiver first, other times it is TV first. This can get worse if the receiver or video switcher defaults to an input that is still ON. Sometimes Iíll switch to an unused input during power ON/OFF in an effort to minimize the junk.

Usually, TV OFF, receiver OFF, delay, TV OFF will deal with the situation.
Post 7 made on Tuesday January 30, 2018 at 22:32
MNTommyBoy
Advanced Member
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775
Craig, why are you trying to come up with your own DirecTV commercial?

Based on what I think you're trying to do for a business plan, you should own, in your home, the complete system that you want to sell to your ideal client. You now have a 4k receiver, move on to the 4k world with a new panel and the Sony 4k blu ray, don't ever talk about hdmi control again, and move on with your life.
"Every word you just said was wrong." ~ Luke Skywalker
Post 8 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 08:49
highfigh
Loyal Member
Joined:
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6,050
On January 30, 2018 at 12:08, Craig Aguiar-Winter said...
I already pulled the plugs on the TV, android and receiver and CEC is off on everything. I'll check again but I'm pretty certain it is off on everything.

It's definitely off on the TV and receiver.

This isn't a pressure situation thankfully as it's my own system and I have a work around but it's a good opportunity to tunel into this crap.

Truck driver is right.

During the design phase I now have a discussion with clients about the nature of HDMI and updates and the industry in general, and that I can't garautee that a manufacturer's product will do what it says, or if it does, that it will continue to do so. I tell them about all the good AND the bad. Way to build confidence, right? But I feel that people need to know the state of the industry and they seem to like straight up honesty. If they are not prepared then maybe they shouldn't have a big system. Anyway....

I don't think anyone should shame you for trying a WBox. We have to try new stuff. Infact I'm glad you mentioned it as I've been tempted but scared. Haha.

It has a two year warranty and the counter guy talked up their 42" models, but the 32" isn't great. Then, I saw others for the same price at BB that did more, looked and sounded better. Didn't have the warranty, but I know someone whose shop does TV repairs.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
OP | Post 9 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 13:02
Craig Aguiar-Winter
Senior Member
Joined:
Posts:
September 2002
1,222
On January 31, 2018 at 08:49, highfigh said...
It has a two year warranty and the counter guy talked up their 42" models, but the 32" isn't great. Then, I saw others for the same price at BB that did more, looked and sounded better. Didn't have the warranty, but I know someone whose shop does TV repairs.

Two year warranty isn't worth much if you don't want to keep it for that long. Haha.
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
OP | Post 10 made on Wednesday January 31, 2018 at 13:07
Craig Aguiar-Winter
Senior Member
Joined:
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September 2002
1,222
On January 30, 2018 at 21:48, buzz said...
In my opinion there is a chicken/egg issue. Turning the TV OFF first is logical, but it will immediately recognize that the receiver is still ON, and start its power up sequence. Iím never sure what the proper sequence might be. I try to minimize visual and audible blips during the shutdown sequence. Sometimes this means receiver first, other times it is TV first. This can get worse if the receiver or video switcher defaults to an input that is still ON. Sometimes Iíll switch to an unused input during power ON/OFF in an effort to minimize the junk.

Usually, TV OFF, receiver OFF, delay, TV OFF will deal with the situation.

I agree with everything you said there. The thing that's interesting in this case is that the TV didn't start to self start until after I mucked with the settings, and performed the update. The settings are the same now so it must be the update that did it... making some of what you mentioned necessary.
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 11 made on Thursday February 1, 2018 at 10:13
highfigh
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On January 31, 2018 at 13:02, Craig Aguiar-Winter said...
Two year warranty isn't worth much if you don't want to keep it for that long. Haha.

If it bothers me too much, I'll test the warranty, if you know what I mean. Might try to see how far I can fling it, or I might take it out and use it for target practice.

Last edited by highfigh on February 2, 2018 09:02.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 12 made on Thursday February 1, 2018 at 12:11
buzz
Select Member
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With a couple Samsung TV's I noticed an interaction between BD-Wise and AnyNet. In order to completely shut down CEC, I had to disable both and they were not on the same Menu page. I also recall that there was a right and wrong sequence to this.

I'm not surprised that a firmware update mucked with things.


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