the new rxv1500 and 2500 have rs232. their long awaited dvds1500 msrp $400 is supposed to come with rs232 , dvd audio and sacd. just got the email. they also released all ir and extended codes in cml for rti. mxf coming soon for urc remotes as well as codes for the prontos.

they seem to be doing some of the right things for the custom install market

qqq - might not be able to slap them with the "NO DISCRETES" stickers at cedia

They have had discretes available for awhile
[Link: yamaha.com]

High-end products have had serial for a long time...many are changing and/or adding USB since most newer notebooks don't offer legacy serial connectors.

Integra has had rear IR jacks and DB9 serial connections for years...hopefully they will wake up and change to USB. I am glad to see Yamaha "coming around"...are they supporting USB serial or legacy? I know that you said RS232, but many incorrectly use the term synonymous with serial which encompasses a lot of connections.

Randy

Yamaha has been one of the leaders in supporting Custom Installers for several years. They were one of the first to have full discrete codesets starting with the X95 series and Discrete power in the X92 series. RS-232 control has been around since the RXV1(2000) and the Products currently being replaced by the 1500 and 2500 already have RS-232 control...........

Randy........... What are you talking about?

RS-232 is a Control Protocal

Serial is a Type of Connection

The RS-232 Control Protocal uses a Serial Connection. Most of the time its on a DB-9, but it can be a Stereo Minijack, Molex connections or any number of Pin to Pin connections, but NOT USB. There are USB to DB-9 Serial adaptors, but just because USB has "Serial" in its name doesnt mean its a replacement for RS-232,Or DB-9 fr that matter. THe next evolution in control (Which is growing rapidly) is TCP/IP Ethernet based. I do a LOT of advanced control systems... I'm a Certified AMX Designer and Programmer, Certified Crestron as well and I've never seen a device (Consumer or pro) COntrolled Via the USB Port.......

Impaqt,

Well I knew i shouldn't have started this, but, I wasn't trying to get too technical or prove what I know vs. someone else, etc.....one of the reasons I left this forum for a few years is that many don't seem to want to help but live to correct. I will forgive you since I have kept track of the forum and there are a handful of posters that help out many, many people and seem to have the right ideas and intentions and YOU are definitely one of them. But, please don't be so quick to "correct" when you are not technically "correct" either.

Yes, RS232 is indeed a control protocol developed and specified by the EIA back in the early 60s. It is officially supported on dfferent connections as my post indicated including the original DB25, DB9 and RJ45, although to support it on both DB9 and RJ45 the specs had to be modified to allow for the fact that neither has enough conductors to carry all of the "official" signals. Thus RS232c, EIA561, etc. I could be wrong, but I have never seen an EIA spec for using it on a stereo minijack. Go back and read the EIA's specs if you want to get technical since RS232 DOES specifiy an approved connection.

Is serial a connection? Not always as you chose to "correct" me. The English lanquage and our society allow plenty of leeway with our wording and I am as guilty as the next person in exercising my right to! Sometimes the word "serial" is liberally used to describe a connection type (and I accept and use it this way), but it is also used to describe a protocol (and a breakfast food for that matter...just trying to keep this from becomming a pissing battle over symantics).

The term serial actually describes the way the data is sent, one following the other like lemmings as opposed to parallel which has multiple bits of data arriving on separate signal paths at the same time. There are MANY serial protocols of which RS232 is the most popular, but we also have RS422, RS485, USB, IEE1394 (firewire), ATA, etc. Thus it DOES technically describe a connection, but NOT a connector.

Re-read my post and you will see that I know USB is NOT RS232. You apparently seem to think I think it is by your "corrections".

I too am certified on AMX and am working on Crestron. I would love to see TCP/IP become the standard and it will for AMX, Crestron, Control4, Lutron, etc. but probably NOT for device configuration and updates (unfortunately) which is why many manufacturers have added the serial ports in the first place...control was a secondary thought. Look at projectors and surround processors. They were among the first peripherials to have serial connections. Originally those were only for factory use for firmware updates, then they allowed field updates, THEN they allowed control.

Products that I carry that currently use USB? Meridian G Series, ReQuest, most brands of PCs on most operating systems can be controlled via their USB port (unfortunately the TCP/IP is used mainly for data transfer and not control), MP3 players (again mainly for data and updates, but some are working on control), Panasonic's new multicell phone systems and many "black boxes" that we use for various applications.

Products that I have had discussions with in adding USB? Lutron, AMX (sort of already has with their PC control), Crestron, Lexicon, Integra, Kaleidescape. Many of these have TCP/IP or older, legacy serial ports (DB25 or DB9) and are simply looking to be more up-to-date and/or flexible.

Lastly, yes I feel that TCP/IP is our future in control too, however, there are many more devices that have and will continue to have "serial" interfaces and NOT TCP/IP. Maybe that will change with IPv6 adding more avaialble addresses. Until then, there are many "black boxes" that convert TCP/IP to serial (all of them) that are stop gaps for now. Some even include their own web servers and email clients making the possibilities endless.

I typed this rather quickly and tried to keep it in layman terms, but, I am sure that there are some technical errors in this post too so fire away if you feel that you need to. Not really the true point of forums but it is what many seem to live for.

Randy

I fell into the defense mode trap and forgot to get back to my original reason for responding to the post!

Knowing that USB and RS232 are more than simply a connector difference, there are known problems using USB to RS232 adapters. Many newer PCs (and all of the Centrino based ones I am aware of) do not support legacy serial (aka RS232) and ONLY have USB. Because of this, I encourage all dealers to provide feedback to their manufacturers and encourage them to get up-to-date and support USB, TCP/IP or BOTH, not just legacy serial.

Is RS232 dead? No, but PC manufacturers are making it more difficult. Even if they get all of the kinks worked out with the adapters, I don't want or need to carry another blasted adapter or cable with me! Crestron has fillied my notebook bag since they can't seem to be consistent on what they want to use to update firmware on their many skus and I need a different cable for each one!

Thus my origimal question for oex.... not to correct, but to inquire.

Just my .02

Randy

Randy,

I have also had many *issues* with the new laptops without serial com ports. I have used many of the serial to USB adaptors, some of them work and some do not.

I have found one that seems to work with Crestron, AMX, Lutron, and others. It is cheap at only $19, and you can configure for com1 through com15. It keeps the settings so you don't have to reset the ports each time you connect.

GUC232A by IOGEAR

[Link: iogear.com]


Even if all the new products have the USB, as you know we will still need to support the current products.

CresNut,

I agree that we still have to support both old and current products...that is why we still have some old laptops around!

Also, we have had fairly good luck with the IOGEAR also ( Meridian had recommended it for their older products), but we still have some connection problems with it mainly with older remotes and phone systems. With that said, the older Pronto/Marantz had problems even with real RS232 ports!

Randy

After olding back on the purchase of a new laptop for at least a year...I discovered a manufacturer here in Montreal that makes laptops to customers requirements... when I asked for a serial connector they said shure no problem!!!!!

so I now have a Windows XP Pentium4 2.8 Ghz with Usb AND SERIAL!!!!

I'm shure you guys have that possibility too...

I love the way posts take on a life of their own

Randy:

Might you be a tad sensitive? Leaving aside the particulars of this instance ( as you excuse Impaqt of the more general tendancy to " correct " ) if I were to write something that was technically incorrect ( or something you thought was incorrect ) is it not in everyone's best intererst to see it corrected or at least debated? Any forum where shared ideas and opinions occurs can take on the all to human tendancy to reflect hubris or pride, where we wish to prove how intelligent we are more than share ideas. Nonetheless, is it not useful for the community to have had you flesh out your point in greater detial?

I for one would not be so quick to call for a USB connection in place of DB9, stereo mini jack ( which is found on many 3 wire RS-232 devices such as Universal Remte Control and the original Request units ), mini DIN, RJ-11, RF-45 as I could not easily make them in the field. I am not technically proficient to know if the power being present on the connection might introduce any other issues such as ground problems. The problem it seems to me is that lap top manufacturers are at fault for not providing the connectiviy we require. I choose a very heavy Dell Inspiron 8200 precisely because it had DB-9 connections.

As for TCP/IP, it will become more common but I do not know if that will be a very good thing if it is the only means of serial communication ( by the way IR is also a serial protocol, only not bidirectional ). I have had far too many routers and switches lock up and need to be rebooted. The beauty of RS-232 is that it is one to one. No external bandwitdth vacume cleaners like X-Boxes to slow down communication. While a com port can certainly lock up I have seen this on fewer occations than I have routers and switches. And I seriously doubt that lower end control systems will permit TCP/IP as IR will continue to be the least expensive means of control. So if I had to vote with my feet it would be to keep RS-232 and a connector that could be easily terminated in the field. Perhaps the answer would be, as could be the case with Integra, and is with Request, that you could communicate via IR, DB-9, and TCP/IP. If I failed to gain a USB connector I would hardly shed a tear.

I also share you distress in having to carry so many interconnecting cables and connectors for Crestron products but I already carry a Keyspan USB-DB9 serial adaptor to load files into the ML500 so this is a fait accompli in my case. Crestron cannot even keep its com port pin outs consistant between products let alone connectors but this would be an entirely different thread,

Alan

Stephane,

Yes, and even Dell has ONE model P4 with a legacy serial port, but I have not found any Centrino based PCs with them. Two of my favorite Internet places for notebooks (or desktops) include: http://www.alienware.com/ (expensive but great) and [Link: cyberpowersystem.com] (the best bargain on quailty products that you can choose many options on). How about others out there...got your favorite sources for PCs?

I prefer the wireless functionality, size for portability and battery life of the Centrino vs. the gaming graphics of the P4s, plus P4s are on borrowed time so we will all eventually have the problem!

Randy

Boy has this thread taken a turn. What a pissin contest it has become.

There has been many discussions within R/C that installers wanted controllable products with discrete codes. My intent was to inform that rs232 was now being offered in an $800 mrsp receiver. I realize that it had been offered in the 2400 at $1,000. The ir code files have only been on yamaha's site for a few weeks and that other formats are coming soon.

Alan,

Yes, I got defensive and stated so in a previous post. I felt Impaqt jumped the gun and responded w/o closely reading the remarks and IF I was trying to teach someone about RS232, then yes, you are correct, it should have been corrected.

Howevery, I asked oex a simple question of what kind of connection, connector, protocol or whatever you choose to refer to it as and chose to somewhat "qualify" my question by stating that " know that you said RS232, but" so someone wouldn't blast back that it was "serial". Instead I got blasted anyway.

Oex is right...he was trying to point out something simple and it took a bad turn. For my participation I appologize.

You are also correct that it is a PC "problem" to us, but we are a small spec in their eyes and they aren't going to change. According to CEMA (the CES sponsers), numerous computer companies are larger than the entire CE market. I am not rushing to do away with legacy, THEY are and the adapters don't always work. IOGEAR and KEYSPAN are good, I own both. Belkin sucks as does an array of others. I would bet that our choices on notebooks with legacy ports goes away within a year or so which was one of my points. CE companies seem very slow to react to change, BUT if we all complain at a common place, let's say the CEDIA EXPO, maybe they will listen!

You are also correct that Crestron can't even be consistent with it's COM port pin outs...EXACTLY why their cables alone fill my case's accessory pockets!

Let's all have a beer and move on to more productive things! OK?

Randy

Might have to look into some of that USB stuff you mention Randy... I have not seen any sort of black Box for Crestron or AMX though.. Is it PC control only?

ANyway, I didnt mean to blast you.. Certainly didnt think I did..... I Apologize...

Impaqt,

Apology accepted. Please also accept my apology. As I stated I have a lot of respect for you (which may be part of the reason I got so defensive).

As far as USB "black boxes", there are many that we use for a variety of applications including adding legacy serial control to PCs, Ethernet control to various peripherals that have USB but no 10/100BaseT, etc. There are also boxes that allow addressable relay control via USB ports. USB is also a way of extending XBox controllers farther than the 9' that is traditionally offered in the gaming arena. AMX offers a USB stick, called the NXA-USBCC that allows Modero touchpanels to access the PC directly from the touchpanel...I am sure Crestron will follow (in fact, how does their new touchscreen from ViewSonic interface? I haven' seen one yet, but maybe USB?).

Again, I am not a proponent or oponent of USB, but it is here to stay and I make the best use of it that I can.

I hope this answers your question.

Randy