SamG,

I'm sorry, but I have several more things to add, as I find some of your comments infuriating (although enlightening as they seem to be the average, un-informed, consumers view):

1) I find it AMAZING and ADMIRABLE that you have the balls to admit that you expect something for nothing.

2) I am reminded of a song by Dire Straits, called...Money for Nothing(and your chicks for free!)

and 3) When you go to you local steakhouse, and the price on the menu for a 20 Ounce PorterHouse is $33.95, do you tell the waitress that the price is too high, and offer her $25.00 or tell her your going to check around town cause she's the "MIDDLE" bidder!!

ughhh...

avdude
www.integrationpros.com

QQQ,

I added some more...and it's STILL kinda toned down!

avdude

Yeah, he's so reserved, isn't he?

I don't think I downplayed it...just being realistic...as I said above......."There is definitely a level of trust involved between the contractor and the client"

I agree that trust is huge...although, since I have moved to Southern California L.A. - I have found out that a lot of people are full of it! Much more so than up north...maybe it's due to all the "bad" contractors that have performed poorley in the past or who knows...It now takes longer for me to develop trust as I hear the same bull@#$% over and over down here.

Anytime there is $$$ involved...people tend to protect themselves and things get serious...that's business!

So do you ALWAYS buy the most expensive item you can? You missed my point entirely, I want the best deal. That doesn't mean the cheapest.


Yes, and I will go to a professional installer and tell him what I want. You want to make me a bid, listing 'x' amount of equipment & labor, and just have a total price? How do I know you're not selling me a $250 television and charging me $500/hour to hook it up?


Um no, it's MY shopping list. I'm the customer.


Honestly, I don't care how much you paid in training. That's part of your business. Please note, I never said I would ask you to install anything I bought myself. This entire hypothetical is based on you bidding on doing the entire project.


So, just because you got your education, I need to pay you anytime I ask for your advice? I need to stop responding to your posts then, this is going to cost me too much money.


On this project, no I won't.

I did when shopping 4 companies for

Did that TOTAL info include line item pricing? :)


What is your problem with this? (telling all the bidders they are low/high (without specific numbers) and giving them the opportunity to change their bid?) Are you saying you ALWAYS give your best price? You can NEVER afford to knock 2-3% off?


I hookup and maintain equipment at the local NBC television affiliate. And guess what, I get a lot of people who ask me questions how to hook up their VCRs, satellite dishes, stereos, computers, whatever. Yes, my advice to them is free. If they want me to come out and actually hook it up, then I charge, but advice is free. BTW, in the last three months, I've been getting bids from five companies across the country to build us some new trucks. The total bids are in the $500K+ range. NOT ONE COMPANY had me give them money to construct the bids. And they (and I) spent A LOT of time getting the bids exactly how I want them.

If I understand you right, you only want me to contact you, pay you to talk to you, pay you for your bid, don't compare your bid to anyone else, and give you the job?

BTW, your comparison of the steakhouse is like apples and oranges. They aren't able to change their prices, but since I know what their prices are, I don't have to go to them.

SamG

Do I expect A to adjust their price? No. Do I hope they will? Yes. That being said, the feeling I get from a salesman will factor into my decision.

Let's say I have three bids (and I get the same feeling about B as you stated). B is the lower bidder. A is 25% higher than B, and C is 27% higher than B. I tell B he's the lowest, A he's in the middle, and C is high. B cuts his another 5%, A cuts 2% and C cuts 4%. My money is going with A or C. B is too low. I agree with avdude here, sometimes you get what you pay for. Having A & C with virtually no difference in quotes to me signifies that's the right number.

If you are A or C (not know what the spread is), and I give you the low/middle/high, do you shave something off your bid? Just curious.

SamG

If that's how I sounded, I apologize. I will be comparing TOTAL price, but want to see a breakdown of equipment costs v. labor costs.


I agree 100% with you. Since I haven't dealt with any HT professionals (except on this board), I will ask for references (and I want them for free). I will call those people and see what they say. If I knew how to find out who you didn't include as a reference, I want to call THEM.


Again, I agree. Just from your attitude in this thread, if you were in my area, you would probably be one of the first people I called for a bid. avdude would be one of the last. I'm not saying he doesn't do a good job, I'm sure he does. But as a customer, I don't need/want to get the attitude I feel he's putting off in this thread.

BTW, when you're doing the original bids, I'm not looking for detailed drawings of what the room will look like. I'd like to know the cost of each piece of equipment, your labor charge, and how much labor you expect. (ex. 1.5 hours to move wall, 4 hours to run cable, 2 hours to connect, etc). I'm looking for rough numbers to start with. Is this unreasonable?

SamG

Sam...

You bring up some good points and a good view of what a customer is thinking... something we should never lose sight of. Thank You.

To expand on the earlier rant that AVdude went on and I elaborated/analogized with my fish story...

Once a customer goes out with an equipment list, he/she will most likely find some desperate trunk slammer who will kill the pricing like the example avdude stated. These people have NO right to quote this kind of pricing to you. Once you see it as a client you now feel that you should pay 2-5% above cost for gear. We as professionals in this scenario are now relegated to providing labor only... same as if we just came in and installed all of your gear. Now your shopping is only for the best fit from an installer. You may go for a mid to high priced installer but you are still asking him to shave his bid.

Once you find the XYZ Receiver on-line in an imaginary stockroom (most of these a--holes do not actually have the gear and will wait 8 weeks to finally tell you that they are still out of stock and ask you if you want to buy ABC brand which is "better" for the same price... ABC brand of course being some bait and switch piece of crap)... you will now tell all of your friends what a great price you found... getting them to expect gear for nothing.

My fish story relates to the problem that

#1. Equipment is getting increasingly harder to make money on. If you, the client feel that this is a good thing then sit by and watch your American economy dwindle as most of the middle class sinks into poverty.

#2. As we become more and more "just installers" while our numbers greatly increase... watch the number of true conscientious professionals leave the industry they can no longer make money in. This void will cause more and more of the fill ins to be elctricians, security guys, etc. who will eventually turn this industry into one of thieves and scam artists who lie in wait for the sucker they can totally screw (can you say used cars?).

The great DEALS you clients are getting by even looking at some of the ridiculous crap being waffled about as proposals is killing an industry. On a greater scale... the same scenarios in other industries are killing the economy in general.

Sam... you actually seem a cut above what we deal with. We say that we only deal with clients we can find mutual agreement with but the problem is... too many clients are getting caught in the whirlpool of bad work for low prices and the tide is going the wrong way for survival of an industry. Please hire a guy like QQQ or avdude (you may not like his attitude but you would like the system he put together for you). Hire a licensed contractor...make him/her show it to you. Hire a guy/gal who is a listed dealer for the products he represents... don't support the grey market; it is a selfish thing to do. Hire a guy/gal with many great references whose past work can be demonstrated to you. If the type of system you want comes in at the budget you desire than who gives a rats ass if you get a line listing or not?

As a contractor who works damn hard, has been doing this for twenty years and makes a lot less money than the clients he serves... it is rather offensive to have my best price shopped around and be compared to guys who are just getting their feet wet or who work out of their garage and an astrovan while carrying no proper licenses to compete with me. It is easy for me to not accept your job if it doesn't allow me to make any money and know that someone will take care of your needs... maybe satifactorily... but as a person who views this thing globally; I can see a lot more problems on the horizon "a lot more pollution in our lake".

SAMG, Since this is a thread I started about trash mouthing..And it has changed into a customer bashing forum..I would like to interject my 2 cents..Sam I once had an emloyee who worked for me formerly from your industry..They spent alot of time in your (business type ) forums..When strangers came in they got bashed PERIOD.. So you should expect it because you guys do it too..AVDude is just expressing how he feels about this industry as a whole..

Everyone who is not in our industry thinks we make a killing at it..That there is some magic way we hide profit and go on vacations in the Bahamas..We work hard in this industry because we like it..The profit margins for our industry are some of the lowest in the country..The only way to survive at it us to sell above average gear at a fair market price..and charge a fair price for labor..I can not tell you how many companies like ours went out of business in the past recession and 9/11..Because we have to run such a tight ship.. People like you Sam think we should sharpen our pencils, discount our labor, give away free advice and line item everything..Do people like you think as well that you can call a high priced Law Firm, or go to a Doctor who specializes in a field, and get free advice also..You know like no retainer, no copays, nothing.. I already know what you are thinking..People like us can not say we are on that level of expertise..Thats the problem with our industry, we are constantly discounted as experts..I for one have spent years in the industry from wire pulling, to installs, to programming and graphic design..I can walk on any job site and tell you if the builder is a complete moron..As a matter of fact most guys in our industry can tell you more about the ins and outs of home constuction than any other "contracter" on the jobsite..and "most" times more than the builder..


So in closing SAM..Its not really about attitude, its about respect..Give it to the guys and you in turn will get it back..No one in this forum would discount your job..Even if it comes with a paper called a degree..We have many, even if there is not an Ivy League name on it..We paid for it,just the same..In years of training, certifications, continued education..and all out passion that no one seems to understand..We just have grown aggravated with the whole (Wal-Mart,Lowes, Home Depot,Internet,Huge Wharehouse),discount mentality that does not seem to apply to electricians,plumbers, and yes even DRs and Lawyers..Because we know we are as educatated as the latter and more so than the former..


THXRick

WOW!

A can of worms.....lol

I'll mention one last thing about the qoute shopping, and then I'll give it up.

Company "A" gives you a quote for $50,000.00 to do your job.

Company "B" gives you a $40,000.00 quote for the job, using equipment that is EXACTLY the same.

You'd go back to company "A" and tell them for a drop in price they can have the job?

They drop their price by 10K with no equipment changes and you'd actually have them do the job?

You're welcome and that's actually all I was trying to do. Your fish story was very well thought out.


I do want to say, I've agreed with everything I read that you will charge extra for installing gear not purchased by you. But, as a consumer, I'd like to know, how much extra do you tag on to the gear? I don't have a problem with you making a profit, but I do have a problem if someone charges $1500 on a $1000 piece of equipment.


First, I plan to hire a professional. Second, if I tell you my budget is $10,000, how much is the system you're going to propose cost? I'm guessing $10K. Would you even talk to me about what I watch, listen to, etc? If so, and you felt that you can satisfy me with a $5K system, what will you propose?


Do you have a problem with me taking your quote and going to someone else and saying "when you do a quote, include a XYZ1298478 wide screen television" to keep even with your bid? I don't think it's fair to compare bids that use different products. Again, I'm not going to tell them how much you bid, but I think I should let everyone (including you) know what equipment is included.

I'll follow up more in a little bit, gotta run.

SamG

Ok guys, you have to realize the problems you encounter with customers happen in every business, and almost every small company reacts the same. "Customers should behave in a way that benefits me!" or "He should have just bought it from me, I'm better!!!". It's classic, and only people who are successful will be able to rise above it. Sam is right with his story about bidding (Calling the Bidder and asking to adjust his quote) Don't you realize that in EVERY OTHER industry this happens? If you own a plot of land and want to build, get blue prints, and get bids from building contractors you do the same thing. People do it when they buy a car, and even AVDude admitted to doing it when he bought an air conditioner. (And I can promise you the other three companies were complainig about the type of "customer" he is) Furthermore, I'm sure AV didn't spend 100K+ on his AC, which alot of clients in this industry typically spend on their systems.

C'mon guys, its the nature of the beast, its called capitalism, and its what makes this country great. Alot of you are looking through blinders about this, and you won't be as big of a success as you can be if you don't overcome this professionaly. I give free quotes and in-home visits to all my clients. AVDude mentioned that he dosen't haggle on price of his steak, but the also didn't charge to look at the menu, and the bread and water is free.

Our time is valuable, I agree, but that is why we charge more to install then Best Buy or Circuit City, and thats why our customers pay it. They do realize it, or else they wouldnt even have come to us. People who fight with customers or show them attitude will not reach the potential that they could have. Customers that come to us are usually being exposed to this for the first time, and you have to talk to them accordingly. I've seen plenty of companies or individuals fail because the expect the customer to know the kind of tech stuff we do, or know how this industry works. Let me break this to you, they don't, know matter how long you've worked in this industry. And they pay us the money the do because they don't want to learn, the shouldn't have to.

Remember, Customers don't want to feel belittled or stupid, especially not the guys I deal with. If any of us were to contract a 100K+ job we would do the same exact thing. Don't get mad at them for doing it, just explain why yours is the way it is, and if they walk, keep in touch. If the company that does their work is an admirable company, adjust your price or find another way to compete, if they are a trunk slammer, the customer will not be happy and wind up calling you if you were a nice guy. You might not make the money you would have, but you have earned countless referrals from the customer, and a client for life.

No, I wouldn't expect anyone to do that, unless they wanted to!

I should correct myself here. You get a shopping list with names and models of products, then you get a price for that whole list. THEN you get a labor figure seperately. Since you're intent on shopping the bid all over town, I know that mine would fall in the same range.


I would assume then, that you don't CARE if the guy you finally hires KNOWS how to program your automation system, or KNOWS how to install your light switches? For that matter, if they show up for your pre-wire, driving a 1974 AMC Gremlin, with two ladders and a taxi-cab sign bolted to the roof, that you'd feel comfortable with their abilites beacuse they're obviously frugal, and they clearly don't mark up product enough to afford a work van? WHAT if once of them falls off a ladder, and breaks his leg on YOUR jobsite, then you find out he has no insurance? In CO anyway, the hospitals will go after him for the bill, then the builder, then you! What if, due to his LACK of training (which of course ISN'T your concern) he installs a lightswitch incorrectly (remember....these are often installed AFTER drywall and final inspections) and a fire ensues? THEN you find out he has no liabilty insurance either.

So, this is all hypothetitcal? Well that's good, because my attitude should also be perceived to be hypothetical. I use far more tact with my customers.


Very funny! ;-) I DO give advice for free (especially on this forum, because I've garnered so much from it, INCLUDING you on several occasions.) But if I have to drive two hours (from Denver to Vail) to look at a job, I DO charge a small fee, which you are advised of up front, to look at your project. So do a large number of the contractors out here. I paid my air-condition guys an average of $35.00 each company, to come give me a consult on what I needed at my bew home. It is COMPLETELY acceptable for a doctor, lawyer, etc...to charge for EVERY second they talk to you, so why not? Since a large number of my customers ARE Doctor and Lawyers, who can't turn a TV on, it's obvious to me that MY education is as valuable for different reasons! They can perform brain surgery (wich I can't) and I can turn on their microwave from a cell phone (which they can't)!


You're adament about your argument that you won't tell other bidders what previous bidders bid. So I am forced to either believe you r not. In this instance, I would be inclined to believe you, based on some statements you make below.

No, none of the four did. They gave a line by line summary of parts and model numbers...then a price at the bottom for ALL parts, and a price at the bottom for ALL labor, that was it.

I mis-interpeted what you were saying here, my apologies. But in this market (CO), it IS becoming increasingly difficult to be competitive! See my first post above about the $24,000 KEF System being spec'd for 10K...MULTI-THOUSANDS less than dealer cost! Sometimes I can afford to knock off 2-3%, somteimtes I cannot, it just depsnds. But please keep in mind, when you're asking a contractor to knock 3% off a job that is already being bid to BE competitive with companies like SoundTrack/Ultimate Electronics, The Good Guys, Listen Up, etc...there is FAR less wiggle room than you might think. 3% off of a 500K job is 15k, and that's a huge chunk of change to small, true custom guys.

That advice would be free from us as well, as it takes several minutes, on the phone, to answer those questions. I write a monthly column for a national trade publication, and am compensated for that column ONLY by the publication, but all the people who read my column, and find it useful, are getting free advice.


Exactly. Clearly, you KNOW what some of this stuff costs, so let me pose this question to you; If you were a small company (as we are) and you were called to a large home to construct a bid (which we frequently are) and you sent a Salesman, a senior installer AND a system engineer (which we always do) to the house to insure that nothing is missed in the bid/design process, and the walkthrough takes 4 hours, would you realistically expect to pay NOTHING for the 12 man hours we just spent there? I WILL advise you that I am going to charge you $75.00 to bring these three guys out right up front. It's not a free consult, but it's cheap.

We then walk the house, and require a design fee. This fee is based on a sliding scale, based upon the ballpark figure that the guys come up with (and tell you on the spot), but it's usually in the range of $500-$2500. This fee is NON-REFUNDABLE if you go with someone else, but IS APPLIED to your system should you go with us.

Why do we do this?

Because, when we throw everything into D-Tools, and give you a 40 page proposal, with diagrams, elecvations, schematics, and a shopping list, we just spent many hours on something you MAY hand to your electrician, or hand to another lower bidder, attempt to purchase the products off the internet and do yourself, or just keep for future use.

ALL of these have happened to us, and we learn from our mistakes. Our AVERAGE proposal (as described above) takes 15-40 hours to produce, check, verify and approve. This is WAY too much time to give away.


Basically, I think that's great, and I'm really happy to hear that people will spend that kind of time for free, when they KNOW they're being shopped like that, by a company (or affiliate) like NBC, that they KNOW they could require a small fee from. I used to sit on a board to purchase ambulance, firetrucks and rescue vehicles for a fire department in SW Colorado. Whenever we called Wheeled Coach, Osage, Pierce-Arrow or American La-France, we had TWO choices...we bought what they had in stock, and could dicker on the price, or we PAID them to design something, and the price as almost immovable, butwe paid them never-the-less. This DRASTICALLY cut down on the shopping we did. We did research, found the two companies we like the best, and paid them what they were worth to design trucks. We went with one for some, and the other for others. Either way though, they both covered their costs for the time they spent with us. They gave NOTHING away for free.


Not really...I think you're mis-understanding me here. I will ALWAYS chargr $75.00 consult fee for a salesman, an engineer and an installer to come for your house that first time.

You DON'T have to pay me a dime to talk to me.

You would always have to pay a minimal fee for my proposal, because you get alot more from us than just a proposal. You get blueprints, intellectual property, what have you. With your ability, you could take our proposals, overlay them to your home blueprints, and probably install your own system.

That's EXACTLY the same reason that architects, engineers and interior designers charge for ALL of their services as well...because the customer can shit-can them at ANY time, and take their ideas to anyone else to do!


Why is it ALWAYS the assumption that SOME industries have this power and some don't? It's tangible property! HOW is it that the waitress at the steakhouse, or the cashier at the Wal-Mart DOESN'T have the power to negotiate. It doesn't matter, we just go in there, see the price, and either pay it or don't. So WHY do people assume that OTHER things can be negotiated?? This drives me NUTS...why is this possible? People ASSUME the price is the price at wal-mart...why don't people ASSUME that my price, or the plumbers price, or the car dealers price is the price.

I will be the first to admit, I have done this as well. But I don't go to the steak house, wal-mart, best buy, etc...and try to dicker...why should someone expect to do it to me? And WHY do I let them?

SamG, I'm not looking to create any enemies here, nor to seem like an asshole. I'm not, but I run a business, and see EVERY facet of what it costs to run that business...so please, just understand my point of view, and those of alot of SMALLER custom installers.

Also please remember this, as I have been burned on it both personally and professionally. NOTHING in life is free! You may think you're beating the five network truvk guys up for free...but they're building their time in somewhere else. We just prefer to tell you up front, and NOT hide it in cables, or rack screws!

You get what you pay for, and what you pay for what you get should be the expected value of the item! If you pay 5K for a surround processor, you're expceting it to act that way...if you pay $399.00...you'll have a decreased level of expectation!

I expect my lawyer, who does nothing for free (inlcuding those initial consultations!) to perform at an exceptionally higher level than the one who advertises "you don't pay if you don't win" What's in it for that attorney? If he has paying customers, and you're one of the freebie customers, you're going to get exactly zero percent of his attnntion in relation to the $250.00/hour client!

Thanks,

avdude

But how do I know (other than reading your posts on this board) that you're giving me a fair shake? For all I know, you're charging double for equipment and $500/hour for installation. This is why I will get three bids. Surely at least two of them will be close. If the third is either way high or way low, I will eliminate them based just on that.


As I typed my earlier response, I figured this would come up. Yes, I do care if who I hire has the knowledge, certification, insurance, etc. to do the job. I don't care how much you spent to get it. Do you care that the steakhouse had to pay $20 to transport your $40 steak? You just want to make sure they cook it enough.


Good. I was starting to worry. :)


This I understand. However, if I'm contacting someone in my town, I don't feel they should charge.


Actually, we talk to our doctor's office a lot (goes with having kids). We only pay when we go to the office. A number of years ago, my wife and I met with two lawyers to discuss her work contract. They met with us for an hour, plus did some research (reading the contract) before the meeting. Never charged us. I know, it's probably the exception, but I wanted to mention it. But guess what... who am I going to call next time I need a lawyer?


First, I won't ask you to shave a specific amount. Remember, I'm just telling you if you're high/low/middle. If you've given me your best price, that's fine.

Second, I'm just small time. I'd never be able to get a system of that size.

I agree that is cheap. And in this case, I would probably pay it. However, when I make my first calls, I'm just exploring what's out there. Maybe what I want won't fit in my budget. I'm wondering if there's a middle step of just the salesman coming out to the site and getting a feel for what I want/can spend.

In that case, I agree I should pay you.

I'm also not trying to create enemies. I come to this site to learn what questions to ask when I finally get to building my HT room. I misunderstood some of your posts and you misunderstood some of mine.

I understand (thanks to this forum) that not all installers are created equal, and I assume you know not all customers are created equal.

SamG

Sam, please clarify. Are you saying that:

1. You have a problem with someone charging $1500 for a piece of equipment that retails/normally sells for $1000?

OR are you saying that:

2. You have a problem with someone selling a piece of equipment for $1500 that cost them $1000?