Exactly. That was the reason for the first question I asked in the thread. These guys could be doing serious damage to his business, high road notwithstanding, depending on the types of claims they are making.

ok...

back to avdude's dilemma... I too have ranted about the kind of business practices he describes and been greeted with a lot of very good advice (Springs... very nice points you make).

Being sort of a country f--k, I like my analogistic stories... so here goes.

Picture a big long lake... full of fish... fishin' is real good. Lots of boaters fish here. They know the waters... know the fish and generally keep out of other boaters way. Every once in a while they compete for a fish but things are ok. They all respect their lake and do nothing to pollute it... they want to keep those fish multiplying and growing so they can keep their families fed.

New boaters find out about the lake and start launching in greater numbers. the waters get more crowded... more boaters are after the same fish but its still ok.

Soon a new breed of boater comes to the lake. He pisses and s--ts in the water and dumps excess oil overboard. Healthy fish begin to get sick and die off or don't grow. Some boaters get mighty upset and call bs on this unwanted intrusion. There ought to be a law against the kind of pollution these guys are making but there ain't.

Down at the south side of the lake are the biggest fish... only a select few boaters are good enough to fish here. Boaters from the north come down once in a while but realize they are in over their heads and start back north again. The northenders notice more and more boats being launched that are dripping oil and they watch more and more people pollute, piss and s--t in the lake. They call out to the boaters on the south side and alert them of the pollution up north but these southside boaters, who basically have blinders on and say "Hey the fishin' is great down here just fish this way and you'll keep catching good fish.

The lake keeps getting more and more polluted... the fish are dying and getting smaller. One day someone in the south finds a few of these diseased fish and throws them back... still not worried that the disease these fish have is spreading even to their prized big ones.

We all know how this story will end if the redneck f--ks are allowed to keep polluting the lake. We end up with a dead cesspool that once used to be a thriving body of water... the southerners... the ones with the blinders on are the ones who will really be saying what the f--k just happened because they didn't give any concern to what was happening away from their thriving waters that were unfortunately still connected to the increasingly polluted ones.

AVdude... I share your pain and we all should before these assholes really do kill our industry (our lake). Get your proverbial heads out of the sand. Instead of "throwing the fish back" get on the horn to your manufacturers and let them know whose f----g up the lake so they can help you send the bastards somewhere else... maybe to a landfill like the used car industry.

The diseases our "fish" are carrying (internetshopinosis, brain-pick-no-pay-itis, cantseevaluemania and you-don't-have-a-storefront-like-Circuit-City-phobia WILL spread to your prize fish... you heard it here first on rhm9's country f--k analogy hour. Don't just let me say told ya so. Be like avdude and try to do something about this crap... Or you can just fish away with your backs to the bad waters until the sludge and the dead fish roll right under your boat!

There are manufacturers who are doing something about some of these problems. More companies are begining to follow this example and I think that if we point these things out to clients it will help.
Klipsch Files Lawsuit Against Multiple Internet Sales Violators



INDIANAPOLIS (January 5, 2004) — Klipsch Audio Technologies, a leading manufacturer of loudspeakers, today announced it has filed suit in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Indiana against companies operating the following internet sites: crazyeddie.com, 50TopSellers.com, AuthorizedElectronics.com, TheBestPriceStore.com, and HomeTheaterPhiles.com. Klipsch is seeking recovery of damages as well as an injunction to prevent the defendants from inducing authorized dealers to transship Klipsch products, interfering with the contractual relationships between Klipsch and its authorized dealers, infringing on Klipsch trademarks, illegally using Klipsch's copyrighted materials, and otherwise competing unfairly with Klipsch.

“The unscrupulous procurement, promotion and sale of Klipsch-branded loudspeakers by unauthorized resellers will not be tolerated and we will exhaust every legal avenue to expose their corrupt business practices,” said Mike Klipsch, Klipsch's executive vice president and chief operating officer. “These free-riders are capitalizing on the hard work and substantial investment that Klipsch and its authorized dealers have made in the promotion of the Klipsch brand identity. We simply will not allow them to hide behind e-mail addresses and damage the quality, integrity and value of the authorized Klipsch dealer network.”

Mike Klipsch alleged that all of the defendants remove the official Klipsch serial number labels from the products and have gone as far as to attach counterfeit labels.

“One purpose of the serial number labels is to give consumers confidence that they are purchasing an authentic Klipsch product with full manufacturer's warranty,” Klipsch said. “Clearly, the extreme measures taken by the defendants highlights their intent to deceive unsuspecting consumers and capitalize illegally on the Klipsch image. We intend to shine a bright light on these activities and stop them.”

Mike Klipsch said all of these violators illegally use Klipsch's trademarks and copyrighted materials — critical pieces of the positive image Klipsch has projected since 1946. He said the Klipsch brand is registered in over 30 countries and that the Indianapolis-based company would not permit these relative newcomers to damage the global brand image Klipsch has spent 60 years building.

Citing a zero tolerance policy for transshipping as grounds, Klipsch has terminated relationships with 16 of its authorized dealers to date, totaling more $5 million in revenue. According to Klipsch's new president, Paul Jacobs, Klipsch has no problem giving up millions more in revenue if that's what it takes to stop the transshipping.

“We will aggressively protect our brand and tirelessly pursue anyone who engages in activities that diminish the Klipsch brand integrity. The buying experience, product quality, customer and technical services and warranty promise are essential to Klipsch's premium reputation. Klipsch and only Klipsch will choose to whom we distribute our products. Dealers who violate our agreements will continue to be terminated and we will begin meeting these unauthorized resellers in court.”

Klipsch has also retained the services of NetEnforcers.com, a brand protection company that assists Klipsch with shutting down auctions by unauthorized dealers using third party web sites such as Ebay and Yahoo. Klipsch officials said NetEnforcers.com has the bandwidth to continuously and tirelessly investigate Internet sales violations, file the appropriate paperwork with the third party web sites, and remove illegal auctions the same day they are found.


This kind of stance by manufacturers will help us to slam the trunk on the kinds of people who "polute our lake"

Good analogy with the fish story.
As for avdude, you have lost the client no matter what you do at this point, if you try to get him with a better deal than you origionaly quoted (not as nuts as the competition), then you have lost your integrity and your initial pricing was meaningless.
The biggest problem is, now there is a client out there that is totally lost as far as "real" pricing goes, the plus could be that once the cheap company gets going and doing things wrong, or they start to upcharge for extras the client didn't know he had to pay extra for, things could go sour, and he may end up coming back to you to finish or fix the job.

A few years ago, I was undercut by an install company, client came to me with their quote and accused me of trying to rip him off. I was very busy at the time and wasn't sure if I really wanted this guy as a customer anyway (he had already forced me to sharpen my pencil before) so I bid him farewell and good luck. He left the other company quote on my desk. I looked at it a few weeks later and realized all the wording used made it impossible to figure out what you really were getting for the money. My guess is that he got what he deserved, a very expensive pre wire and a house that was "prepaired" for alot of named equipment (that I had quoted on) and he is going to have to pay for everything else. The light at the end of the tunnel is that companies that do business this way come and go, they cause problems yes, but once they are gone there are always a few clients that eventually find you to clean up the mess, and end up becoming another great referal on your list.

Avdude, if you really feel the need to say something to the client, this is another senario that is possible. I got seriously undercut on some very expensive gear, client calls me to say he is going with other company. I find out they aren't dealers, but told client they could get "anything". Work proceeds, time to start ordering product, client is informed items A,B,C are out of stock or new models are coming but won't be available in time for install, but they can get him this other stuff thats just as good (equipment they are dealers for)Now they are getting full retail for other gear, and client still believes I'm too expensive, even though they have just played the bait and switch on him. It sucks but this also happens.

I think if you get a client who is a shopper and he affords you the opportunity to review the competitor's bids there should be no way that you loose that job! Bids that severely undercut others are always flawed. This is your opportunity to pick it apart and show why your "upfront" pricing with no hidden costs is the way to go. Also, brag a little about your fantastic customer service, your warrantee, your level of workmanship, number of years in business, give references, have a good website that is a living resume. Explain the benefits that your customer will be able to enjoy by using the equipment you have chosen. Be upfront about your labor charges...be firm. Include cushion, "gravy" that can be skimmed off the top to win the client over to make them feel they have gotten the best deal. Some people just love to bargain and will not accept your first price no matter how competitive it is...and why should they. I would never accept the first offer at a car dealership!

When you write a proposal...write it like a novel...don't just have a sheet of paper with model numbers on it and talk about esoteric qualities of the equipment. Most clients don’t' care about that stuff. They want to know what it will do for them and how they will have to operate it.

I could go on and on but the bottom line is be honest and don't kiss ass, nobody respects an ass kisser!

Hell, I actually had a competitor tell a client that I bought my product from Montgomery-Ward.

When told this by the client, I broke out laughing.

Then I said to the client: "Isn't it amazing what sort of lies that some people will tell, when they're trying to get you to use their company"?

Sadly, there's not much more about this underhanded activity that you can do, other than point out to a potential customer, just how dishonest this person must be, to be willing to debase you and your company for no reason other than to attempt to garner some business.

And on the client who SHOPS your quote? Not a chance!

Shop my quote, and I'll tell you that I don't want your business, plain and simple.

Are you for real? Are you like the only guy in town or something? When people pay a lot of money for things it is natural that they want your best price. You might be giving it to them, but always expect questions! Now when someone is nit picky about every little detail and refutes every single item then I'd be weary of what type of client they are going to be.

We used to have a client that asked about the $100 or less items and glanced right over the $50,000 ones! Totally amazing! Some people just need to ask questions and as the authority you need to have those answers and have the patience to teach them.

Yup. Most assuredly "for real".

Questions? No problem. They're pretty much expected.

But question my prices by going to the competition (shopping by quote), getting a bid from them (usually not like items), and then asking me to "sharpen my pencil"? Not gonna happen.

Frankly, anyone who will do this doesn't rate my expertise. I trust the customer will pay me when the job is done, and I expect that the customer trust me a bit too....Shopping my quote isn't demonstrating any level of trust.

Speaking as a future customer... it sounds like you don't like the fact people want to get the best deal for their money. Notice I didn't say the "cheapest" deal.

First, when I bid out my project, I will ask professionals to come out and talk to me to find out what my needs/budget are. And I expect that for free! (when you shop for a car, do you pay a salesman to listen to you say what kind of car you want?)

Second, I do want a bid that falls within my budget. Yes, I want line item $$. Maybe your bid is high, but that's because I asked for a bigger ticket item than what I really need. I can do the math and subtract that item and see what the bid will be. Yes, I expect this for free also. I'll learn something with every bid offered, and include the question with new bidders (not saying what your answer is)

Third, I reserve the right to ask other professionals what they will charge for the same project. I can also specifically name products you listed for me. I WILL not tell them how much you bid for the project.

Once all the bids are in, I'll call everyone and say "You're high/low/middle, do you want to adjust your bid?". If you don't want to, that's fine. If I accept your bid, I'll give you a deposit to start ordering the equipment.

Would anyone be willing to work like this? The impression I'm getting from some of you is "Pay me to talk, pay me to bid, and if you go somewhere else, bye-bye money."

Yes, time is money, but guess what, my time costs too.

SamG

Post broken into two parts.

Good post Sam. I don't find anything particularly unreasonable in your stance, though I don't necessarily agree with all of it. A couple of questions.

1. How will you evalute your bids? As an example, what if vendor A seems honest and exhibits a high degree of expertise but their bid is 25% higher on the same items than vendor B that does not exhibit the same level of trustworthyness/expertise. Do you expect vendor A to adjust their price to meet or get close to vendor B?



This message was edited by QQQ on 02/23/04 21:45.

2. My one comment is that there *seems* to be an assumption inherent in your post that the thing you will be comparing the most is prices on *equipment*. I submit to you that you will be buying “your installer” so to speak MUCH more than you are buying equipment. For instance, someone pays 5K for a speaker package that someone else bid 8K on. And at the end, that 5K speaker package sounds like a $500 package because it wasn’t installed and calibrated correctly. Or it’s never convenient for the client to operate their system because the remote control was never programmed correctly (nor were the proper components chosen to work “right” with the remote). I could give a thousand examples, but our company frequently reframes a wall in order to place a speaker in the proper place. Taking an extra two installation hours to get the speaker placement right can make a greater difference than 5K of extra speakers. My point again being that you are buying an installation far more than you are buying equipment.

That all for this speech :-). Good luck.

Good points SamG...We ALWAYS offer free advice, inspections, free meetings and free estimates. The only time we start charging is when we have to do design work like creating drawings and modifying architects plans. This can be very time consuming and is highly skilled work that is deserving of payment.

In regard to



You have to be kidding...trust? Unless these people you work for are relatives you can't REALLY trust anyone. Who knows what their background is. That's why you have your client sign a CONTRACT...this is why you must be a CONTRACTOR to do this type of work. The nicest people in the world could be scam artists. There is definitely a level of trust involved between the contractor and the client...but c'mon man...shopping a quote is totally normal...just be upfront and offer competitive pricing on the equipment. If you feel that you are talented above and beyond everyone else, charge a premium for your labor. When the client asks why the labor charges are higher than others, tout your experience, skills, customer service and desire to maintain a relationship with said client.

Trust is one of the single most important things I look for in a busines relationship, whether I'm the client or the vendor/service provider. In my experience it's also probably the single biggest factor in getting business, especially huge jobs. People buying huge/high-end system want to work with someone they can trust. It's importance cannot be over-rated and the fact that we have contracts doesn't change that. I'm surprised you would downplay it.

I'm NOT saying I agree with all of Trunkslammers comments.

People get what they pay for. PERIOD.


You are completely off base and unrealistic in your expectation here. YOU went to the car dealership, they didn't bring the car to you. They handed you a brochure, they DID NOT write you a comphrehensive bid, and if you didn't meet the minimum personal criteria for that salesman, based on his crdeit managers rating...you were told to check back in six months.

If you are getting this, then enjoy your shopping list. You will NEVER get this from me! You WILL get a line by line explanation, but you will get a TOTAL price. SORRY...it's MY shopping list!.
|Maybe your bid is high,

I paid over 10,000 PER EMPLOYEE for traiing last year, ans sorry, MR. Customer, but you are GOING to help pay for their elevated level of expertise also! Mayne your new projector, from a factory authorized, ceritifed and trained installer will STILL blow up, this happens...difference is, you bought it from an AUTHORIZED dealer...so it's just plain covered!

|I'll learn

YES, YOU WILL! Because someone who PAID for the education was silly enough to give it up for free!


I reserve the right to require a fee for the 2-4 hours of my time you waste up front.


Yes you will! EVERYONE DOES THIS! You telling me you NEVER go to that car dealership and say they guy across the street will sell it for this? BULLSHIT! I did when shopping 4 companies for an air-conditioner (three charge me a small fee...one didn't! I went with a fee based business because his proposal (maybe cause I paid a small fee) was done with real software, made sense, and offered TOTAL info!

No printable comment!


What DO you do for a living? Is ALL YOUR ADVICE FREE?

SAME QUESTION AS ABOVE!

avdude
wwwi.integrationpros.com

What do you really think AVDude :-)?