My worst fears have come true. My beautiful 50 inch Mitsubishi has a local channel logo (WKOW out of Madison WI US OF A) burned into the bottom left hand corner of the screen. The logo is about 5 inches square and as bright red as a new babies backside. I discovered the problem when using the Avia Guide to Home Theater DVD. There is a point on the DVD were you are adjusting contrast (or maybe it was brightness) where the bottom third of the screen is void of any color. There it was, a stupid 27 logo looking right at me. Of course, once I had seen it I now see it all the time...

I have been rather loud in this form in the past about my displeasure with the way the networks had made themselves at home with my TV. At that point my concerns were only based on what I had heard others warning about. My take on the situation at the time was it took constant, prolonged exposure to create this type of problem. While I understood the danger I thought I was safe because I typically never watched any channel longer than it takes to view a movie. This combined with the fact I am a confirmed channel flipper, I really thought I had no problems....

This particular logo is used only during WKOW's news broadcasts that I am aware of. Any other usage does not enter into this discussion because the only thing I watch on WKOW on any regular bases is the news. The news broadcasts that I watch are 5:00 am, 5:00pm, 6:00pm and 10:00pm each is a half hour broadcast. During the broadcast the offending logo is displayed in a non-transparent image all the time they are broadcasting from their studio. Currently, when they broadcast remotely, they use a transparent version of the logo. I can not say when this was started because at one time I know they always used the non-transparent image on the remotes as well. Of course, commercial time never has a station logo present (about 10 minutes for each 30 minute broadcast), the people paying for the time slot would not allow it. These seems strange in light of the fact, we the consumers, who pay for the equipment to watch their channels are required to put up with it.

As any good consumer would, when I discovered the problem I contacted WKOW to express my displeasure and to seek compensation for damages caused to my now slightly disfigured 50 inch Mitsubishi. After a very short and one sided conversation with a receptionist, I was transferred to WKOW's technical area. I had a pleasant conversation with a technician that will go nameless who said he could easily see how this could happen. He suggested I contact the station manager and supplied me with his name and routed me back to receptionist.

The receptionist was more than happy to route me to the station manager and to his credit he accepted my phone call. After describing the situation to him his first comments was a statement of surprise that I had experienced this problem. He related that there had not been any other complaints received (???) about TV's being damaged with their obtrusive station logo. Well ok, obtrusive is my word of choice not his... Anyway, when I asked him about compensation for the damage caused by his stations logo his reply was that "I had chosen to watch their station at the times that I did, so any damaged caused by that viewing was my responsibility". Go figure, a business that relies on it viewers to make living, who actively advertises themselves as the best in the local market, a business that constantly uses teasers and other means to get you to stay tuned to their channel, says it's MY fault their stations logo is permanently etched into what used to be a beautiful 50 inch Mitsubishi TV.

So people, I need help! Does anyone know about a currently active class action suit that is addressing this problem? If not, would any of you lawyer type people care to take up the cause? I can not believe I am the only victim of this gross miss use of my electronic equipment. Anyone have any suggestions on how to pursue a class action suit beyond the notion that I need a lawyer?

IF YOU HAVE HAD A SIMULAR PROBLEM PLEASE POST YOUR EXPERINCE AND RESOULTION (if any).

Thanks so much for your time, and I hope to hear from each and everyone of you..

-jo

Similar experience:
Sometime last year I noticed, on an all white screen, that the FOX NEWS logo had been burned into the lower left corner of my 53" Pioneer. The burn-in appears as a very faint gray on white.

I e-mailed FOX NEWS and gave them an earful. No response! I quit watching that channel.

Several months later, FOX NEWS began using a rotating logo. I assume they had more complaints. I'm now a viewer once again.

To my surprise, the burn-in seems to be fading

jo: I'm 30lbs. overweight and I can hardly blame 31 Flavors for putting pictures of ice cream in their windows or painting polka dots on the walls; I walked through the door, ordered, paid for it, and ate it.

Who shall I blame when my direct view finally develops ghosts of bands "top 'n bottom" from watching letterbox over 4:3?

Not to say I don't sympathize with you, but why don't you join forces with people who propose to boycott all stations which use floating logos? There are groups with that agenda. Or you could badger them to come up with a technology that periodically shifts the logo from corner to corner without being too distracting. Some of the stations are using a somewhat opaque logo, but I doubt this helps. Stock tickers are another problem.

If the squeaky wheel gets the grease you could squeak here but if you read the page this guy hasn't got any grease from Sony to date.

Some owner's manual contain a disclaimer about this problem. Mitsubishi in particular says: "Display of stationary images, such as letterbox images with top/bottom bars (wide-screen pictures), should be limited to 15 percent of total viewing per week. Wide-screen TVs are designed primarily for viewing wide-screen images. Displaying stationary images, such as side bars shown on nonexpanded standard-shaped TV pictures, should be limited to 15 percent of total viewing per week. Viewing other stationary images such as stock market reports, video game patterns, station logos, Web sites, or computer-style patterns should be similarly limited."

Conan (not the barbarian) is already on your side. Time for you to get involved in the movement. You come up with an online petition and I'm sure you'll get lots of people to sign on to it. (I will) If you also had proposals on how the networks might still be able to display logos you might make more headway. Secondly, target the ADVERTISERS that use those networks.

[Link: colossus.net]
http://www.logofreetv.org.uk

well jo, you've got me scared to check. It's been a while since I ran my copy of Video Essentials and I'm afraid of what I'll find in the bottom right hand corner. It never occured to me that it might happen and I'm glad there are people, organized and not, that are complaining about them. When I saw one for the first time on MTV I thought it was cute, even clever, but now they just *&^* me off. I wish it was as easy as just not watching that station but... They All Have Them!

Sign petitions... sure will.
Send email... yup. (I might even send mail if they remove them. Even they deserve praise when they do good)

Sheik_Yerbouhti:

Thank you for your thoughts and links included in you response. I did look into both links and came away with a deepening sense of despair.

The [Link: colossus.net] site has a total of three pages including the home page. While his vision on what is wrong with our current state of affairs of broadcast TV do very much agree with mine, the site lacks any kind of real development or direction on how to correct the problem. The best thing it has going for it is the list of network address and urls where you can start looking for contacts to voice your concerns.

The http://www.logofreetv.org.uk site is just the opposite. Very well developed with a wealth of information. Unfortunately, it seemed to be ALL directed at the UK broadcasting systems. I applaud their efforts but do not see how it is relevant to my issues here in the US of A.

As franklin has pointed out, the notion that a person can just change the channel to avoid stationary logos does not hold up any more. Most all the stations seem to be doing it to one degree or another. The end results is that you get a wide verity of burned in images but maybe not a clearly defined station logo across your picture tube. You may not be able to point to a specific location on the screen and say that is so and so's logo but your screen has been impacted none the less. This abuse of your equipment will result in a loss of clarity and reliability before it would have occurred if the stationary objects had not been broadcast to start with. I do not think it is reasonable to force the public switch channels every three minutes to avoid damaging their TV's.

I can see your point about not looking to the house of 31 flavors to ease your pain of the additional poundage. You entered the store with your eyes wide open under the glare of the neon sign and made your decision (flavor that is). But what has caused my pain does not come delivered with a bright neon sign announcing the danger. No, it is much more insidious than that. It takes small bites of my screen for ten minutes or less at a time, a few times a day, until finally the wound is visible. No evidence was offered up to me so that I could make the same type of decision you did for the flavor of the day until it was to late.

While my pain was caused by logos purposely designed and transmitted by the broadcasters, your black bar analogy was not caused by broadcasters but rather uninformed consumers. To me, the black bars are the neon sign that this could be a problem. This is something I would avoid like the plague. This I can make an informed decision about and act accordingly while taking full responsibility for that decision. With the logo's, there isn't a clear and present danger. They come, they go, what harm could they be causing right? While both conditions cause damage to the screen, I would suggest one is caused by the consumer and the other by the broadcasters.

I view the warnings in the manuals as an absolution for the TV manufacture. They are not responsible for what the broadcasters send out any more than I am. With the large number of broadcasters using stationary logo's your options are very limited as far as avoiding those that do use them. Just because you agree to watch their channel does not mean you accept the damage that it does. They should be broadcasting a single that does not damage your equipment to start with.

As noted earlier, all broadcasters do it to one extent or another. My only true line of defense would be to only view prerecord material whose source was not a broadcast channel. By the broadcasters decision to utilize stationary logos, they have deprived me of fair use of a product that I have legally purchased. By this I mean, I should be able to use the product within the scope of its design in away that is consistent with average user without experiencing damage to the product.

To your suggestion that I start a petition -- in IMHO, the only time broadcasters will respond to something like this is when it impacts their bottom dollar. With the number of viewers they have nation wide, it would be next to impossible to unite enough people for the stations to take notice. John C. Dovorak has made the observation that the Internet is full of petitions, and arguments for just causes and the outcome is always the same --- nothing happens. Legation, on the other hand, impacts their bottom dollar directly. We need to get the courts to understand that by the stations exercising their right to identify themselves in the manor that they are, they are causing physical harm to the consumers private property and that the consumer should be compensated. That is my suggestion and why I am looking for information on how to proceed with it.

To your question what I would recommend -- my first thought would be to have the broadcasters immediately stop using logos in any way shape or form to avoid any possibility of damaging the consumers equipment. My second and more realistic suggestion would that all logos be made as a watermark with a VERY limited time of display and strict guidelines on how often they can be displayed. You will notice all the viable alternatives in my mind reside on the broadcasters side of the fence.

As a final note, I would add one additional piece of information about the conversation I had with the station manager. During our talk, he related to me that the in house monitors have the same problem as I do, burned in logos. If you want to talk decisions and responsibilities, they have seen the damage that stationary logos can do on their own monitors and made the decision to continue the practice anyway. Should they not be held responsible for their decision? There are viable alternatives to stationary logos but not viable alternatives for the public to avoid them.

I did not cause this problem, the problem was caused by what was being transmitted by the broadcasters.

Thanks again for your reply...

-jo

This message was edited by jrolmstd on 06/08/02 00:55.03.

Russell R:

Could you update your post with a city, state, channel number? Who knows, maybe it will help attract some attention to the problem.

As to your observation that the logo is fading I find that scary. I suspect the spinning logo is continuing to etch your screen and in the process covering up the initial logo. The damage is not being repaired, just blurred and very possibly being made bigger since it would take more space on the screen to show a spinning logo than a stationary one...

Thanks for your input.

-jo

This really is a worrying topic and here in the uk we pay a tv licence so we can recieve these damaging broadcasts.

It seems the only way we could do something about it here is to not pay the license fee, that way the government would interveen (they hate losing money). If only people would stand together on this.

john

What would you do a class action suit? Get an estimate for the cost of replacing the CRTs and sue them in small claims court. I doubt you would win but it would get their attention and perhaps make them modify the logo so it's less likely to cause burn in.

Larry in TN:

Thanks for the reply!

I would need to look into the limitations as to monetary compensation before moving ahead with it. I would expect that by the time the screen was replaced, everything realigned, service call(s), my legal expenses, etc we would be beyond a small claims court limitations. While, it maybe possible to go to small claims court and get a settlement it would also have a small impact on the nations broadcasters policies.

Maybe I am just caught up in the injustice of it all, but for me it has really grown beyond the idea of getting compensation from one broadcaster. Yes, I would like to be compensated for damage done to by beloved TV but I am afraid that getting compensation one broadcaster would not change the policies of the others. Best case, I go to court, win my case, and get the TV repaired or replaced. What do I do then? Limit my viewing of any one station to 3 minutes or less to try and prevent the same damage from occuring? No, I believe the only real solution is to stop the practice of using damaging logos by the broadcasters.

What I see a class action suite doing for this issue is to put it on a national platform. In a class action suite, all broadcaster who engage in this dangerous practice could possibly be listed as defendants. Anyone who could show damage would be a potential plaintiff. We could change the landscape of broadcast TV with one court case. In the big picture, I believe this is the only way to protect our current and future investments of our beloved TV's.

-jo

I have been in contact with the web master over at http://www.logofreetv.org.uk and found him to be a dedicated and friendly individual. He is in the process of helping some US people get started with a "brother" campaign to fight the good fight against logo usage here in the US.

While the US site is not ready for general use, you can register at the UK site as a "world user". That way, when the US site becomes available, you will be notified. I have already done so, and found the registration process to be very painless and well organized. This looks to be a excellent solution to getting the word out. I would encourage everyone that has experienced problems with logos or is afraid that they will or just finds their instructive nature unacceptable, to go ahead and get registered. Maybe not all at once, since I would think at least 80% of all viewers would fall someplace into this category....

-jo

This message was edited by jrolmstd on 06/08/02 12:11.42.

jo-

My reference to FOX NEWS is to the FOX News network. In my case, E* channel 205. I just used this as one example.

There are plenty more networks that have large, opaque logos that are left in place for long periods of time. Some logos are only removed during commercials. They can and do cause problems.

Jo-
Ouch!! Burn-in is certainly a potential problem. Although it's too late to help your situation, I highly recommend anyone with a CRT based set to use something like AVIA as soon as you get your set. Virtually all TV's come off the assembly line with settings pre-set so that they will look reasonably good on a showroom floor. Since most showrooms tend to be brightly lit, TV's typically are set with high brightness, high contrast, and sharpness turned up fairly high also.

I'd be willing to bet that when you used AVIA you had to turn down most all of the settings to get a properly adjusted set. I'd also bet that once you did it, the image seemed darker than you were used to. Hopefully you resisted the urge to turn the brightness/contrast/sharpness back up to make it look "good" again. It's easy to get conditioned to watching an overly bright picture, especially since they come set that way!!

As a general room of thumb, if your brightness is set over 40%, it's probably brighter than it should be. Sharpness settings should be almost down to zero.

Long story short, calibrating your set with AVIA or Video Essentials will greatly reduce the likelihood of burn in. You'll quickly get used to the "darker" image and soon realize that it's better than that super bright image you're used to.

Of course, I share your frustration with logo's. Luckily my LCD projector isn't subject to burn-in!!



This message was edited by Steve13 on 06/08/02 14:08.05.

You don't need a new screen, you need new CRTs. You're probably looking at $150-$200 each for the three CRTs then a few hundred for a new calibration. In most states the small claims court limits are in the $3000-$5000 range so you're right in that range. Legal expenses would be zero with relatively small court fees.

Filing a class action is a much more involved, and expensive, procedure. You would want to have a strong legal case before you started incurring those bills.

Here's some information on class actions: [Link: currentlegal.com]

Thanks for the responses people...

Steve13:

You are absolutely right about the need to keep a TV correctly adjusted. The same week the TV came home, I purchased and used Joe Kane's Video Essentials. I have maintained those settings ever since to a point that the wife complains I am spending to much time tweaking my beloved TV. I am afraid you would lose your bet about my picture getting darker when I ran my new copy of Avia on it. All I was doing at that time was confirming I was getting the same settings using two different testing materials. I have never allowed the TV's brightness or contrast to be adjusted artificially high.

Just goes to show you, that as a consumer you can only do so much to protect yourself from the harmful rays sent out by the broadcasters...


Larry in TN:
Thanks for the URL on class actions, I will look into it more. Maybe my best solution is to fight this on three levels. One in small claims court, one with a class action, and the third with a US version of http://www.logofreetv.org.uk. My lack of technical understanding on how the Rear Project system works was showing when I referred to the screen being burned in. Until your clarification, I had envisioned the damage was done at the point where the images was being reflected on the screen. I have a problem with any plans on repairing the set at this time. It seems like I would just be throwing away good money since a I can not prevent the problem from occurring again without sacrificing my choices of viewing options. Oh well, that is a personal struggle I will need to work through...

Does anyone know if HDTV rear projection sets have the same issues with logo damage as the analog sets?

Thanks again everyone for all the input...

-jo

This message was edited by jrolmstd on 06/08/02 19:19.19.

ANY CRT based set will have burn in issues. Technologies like plasma, LCD and DLP don't have burn in problems but they are many times more expensive and they have problems of their own.