Hi Everybody,
Here's a situation that makes me feel a little weird.We began doing Crestron systems about 3 or 4 years ago.We needed to use a programmer outside of our shop for the first 2 really large systems.We had already began programming smaller systems,so we always had a master plan of keeping it in house after we had learned enough.Here's what I feel may be crossing a line-our office paid the programmer for the work,and we received the final programs,and all of it's custom macros and touchpanel graphics.We have used the programs to learn a great deal,and basically cut and paste what would have been a great deal of time consuming logic into new programs that we have done since then.Is this considered unethical,or is it just guilt on my part for getting the work done in an easier and lazier way?By the way,it's not like I can't understand the logic,or deviate from the programs he created,but it was so much easier seeing it created already.We started in SIMPL windows,and not System Builder,which helped a great deal.I was just wondering if this is unusual,or have you guys had this same situation personally?Thanks for the input!

What was the understanding you had with the programmer? Did(does) the programmer know what you are doing with his work?

The cutting and pasting may be crossing a line depending on the above answers but just seeing how he did certain things and the creating them on your own doesn't trouble me at all.

If you paid for the programming you should own it.
If I paid someone to build a box and I was smart enough to understand how he did it then I have every right to build the next one myself.

You paid the programmer to write the program for you, not for himself. Unless you had some specific agreement beforehand, you own it.

The recording industry disagrees with you. I can make CD's all day from music which are illegal. I think it is bad business.

You did not pay someone to write the song, play the music, and record the disc specifically for you. I don't think the two are the same.

I think we actually just had this same arguent in a different thread...

It really depends on what your understanding is with the programmer. If your programmer was under the impression that you were going to use his code to develop your own, then no, it's not unethical. If the programmer was under the belief that he was paid simply to do the actual job that you're getting the source from, then yes, I would consider that stealing.

That said, I think it also depends on exactly what you're taking from the source. Speaking as a programmer, I've written large chunks of code that I frankly would not care about having stolen -- such as modules to operate common equipment that any other programmer could easily write. Conversely, there are chunks of code that I have written to provide greater functionality to a system, many of which took large amounts of time and creativity to develop, that I would not want to see copied into other programs without my system. If you were to use the custom art that I create for my touch panels without my permission (granted it's not really programming but it is related), I would be howling for blood.

Yea that is hardly the same thing. If you paid him to do the work it is your property.

By that logic I could go buy a copy of Windows, make copies of the disc, and sell those copies for a profit. I paid for the software, so it's my property, right?

There is a difference between buying a commodity item, copying it and selling it as your own, and hiring a company to develop a product for you based on your specs and design.
Does this mean by your terms that, a company who designs a pre amp, then hires a manufacturer to build it, that the ownership belongs to the manufacturer? I think not.

If you are the manufacture and YOU hire someone to design a product, you own it...

With Windows, or D-Tools, or Quickbooks, or anything else like that you are buying a license to the software, not the software itself.

You're not comparing apples to apples.

I would say it depends on the agreement you had with the programmer. If you own the rights to the programming he did (because he sold it to you) then you can do whatever you want. If he owns it, and provided it to you for just in case purposes only, then you're across the line.

As an independant programmer, I allways leave the code on the processor and typically give the company I am programming for a copy of the files. Any time I am on a job site for another company I act as if i am an employee of that company and never state to anyone that I am an outsider, I have seen other programmers come into projects for other companies and start to solicit people on the site (builders, homeowners and caretakers) for other work. In my contract and based on our agreements, the programming I am hired for is for a specific project and location, copying it and using it on additional jobs is not allowed. However there really is no way to enforce this and probably would be a difficult legaal case to prove seeing that they could just change one line of code and say that it is not the same. I think it is kind of crappy to hire someone for a couple of projects and then take their programming and copy it freely all you want. I realise this happens, and I am usually pretty good about choosing who I work with and developing a good relationship with them. If a compnay came to me and stated that this is what they intended was to use me until their own company programmer came up to speed and give them a little help along the way I would also be open to this. If it is in the open and discussed I would be ok, if it is hidden and done under the table it is a little slimy.

The guidelines were never defined by anyone.We actually asked another Crestron dealer to use his programmer because he was slow at the time and needed some fill in work to keep his programmer busy.So we actually don't have an agreement,or an understanding either way,but we have definitely used that to our advantage.I really liked their programmer personally,and have alot of professional respect for him,so this is why I feel like we've used his work in a sneaky way.I guess that it becomes more of a personal feeling than anything else.Thanks for the replies.

Just a thought. If there was no agreement, I think the courts would side with you as you paid for the program.

Maybe compensate the guy for stuff he did that you reuse? One time payment, a few bucks each time until you make your own. In an ideal world the programmer would be happy and you would have good Karma.

Yes I'm an idealist! Glad to see someone else in the business with a conscience