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The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:
| Topic: | Solar panels to power a society are woefully inefficient and environmentally catastrophic. This thread has 62 replies. Displaying posts 46 through 60. |
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| Post 46 made on Monday December 25, 2017 at 23:19 |
Fins Elite Member |
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Posts: | June 2007
11,627 |
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On December 25, 2017 at 17:07, Mario said...
Tree huggers not giving 12 million acres of land? Really?
You show me one tree hugger that would rather see coal, oil or lumber burning power plant than PVs. Having a university in the middle of the mountains, our area attracts more than it’s fair share of the tree hugger types. And based on my own observations, I’d say it would be harder to get them to go along with this idea than logic might make you expect. Typically they want no disturbing of natural environments, and don’t believe in compromise, even for the greater good of their own agenda.
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Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.
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| Post 47 made on Tuesday December 26, 2017 at 04:54 |
highfigh Loyal Member |
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On December 25, 2017 at 23:11, Fins said...
Most of the modern day issues in the Middle East can be connected to the Sykes Picot Agreement after WWI when mainly Great Britain and France thought the best way to prevent future problems in the region was to redraw boundaries to break up natural cultural alignments. Don't forget the Ottoman Empire and their alignment with Germany and Austria-Hungary, which led to the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand and the start of WWI. The "Middle East" hasn't always contained itself. Before that, the Barbary Pirates were a major problem for many countries.
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My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder." |
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| OP | Post 48 made on Tuesday December 26, 2017 at 11:53 |
Ernie Gilman Yes, That Ernie! |
Joined:
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Let's get back to energy and this century. They say all politics is local. One of the big difficulties for environmentalists has been getting enough wind behind their sails, metaphorically speaking, for people in one place to care about conditions in another place. Here's an example of an issue that may seem an environmental issue, that is in reality a local issue: Wind Power Means Jobs in Texas, and Partisan Politics Isn't Going to Stop It - Wind turbines bring jobs, tax dollars for new schools, income security for farmers and energy independence. To Texans, climate change has little to do with it. [Link: insideclimatenews.org]
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A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw |
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| Post 49 made on Tuesday December 26, 2017 at 12:43 |
Fins Elite Member |
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On December 26, 2017 at 11:53, Ernie Gilman said...
Let's get back to energy and this century. They say all politics is local. One of the big difficulties for environmentalists has been getting enough wind behind their sails, metaphorically speaking, for people in one place to care about conditions in another place. Here's an example of an issue that may seem an environmental issue, that is in reality a local issue: [Link: insideclimatenews.org]About 15 years ago my grandfather tried to sign a deal leasing land to the TVA for a wind farm. He owned most of a mountain and the TVA wanted to put windmills along the ridge. But word got out and the locals raised hell to stop the plan.
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Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.
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| Post 50 made on Tuesday December 26, 2017 at 14:51 |
highfigh Loyal Member |
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8,322 |
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On December 26, 2017 at 12:43, Fins said...
About 15 years ago my grandfather tried to sign a deal leasing land to the TVA for a wind farm. He owned most of a mountain and the TVA wanted to put windmills along the ridge. But word got out and the locals raised hell to stop the plan. Any talk of 'Mountain Justice'?
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My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder." |
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| Post 51 made on Tuesday December 26, 2017 at 23:16 |
Hi-FiGuy Super Member |
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2,836 |
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| Post 52 made on Wednesday December 27, 2017 at 01:07 |
Hi-FiGuy Super Member |
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Running a house and powering an industrial nation are two very different things.
You even say in your own words you don't get 100% duty cycle 100% of the time.
I am not saying we don't need to change our ways, we do,but solar is no where near the potential of running this nation 100% duty cycle 24/7, not even close.
You took my statement of covering the planet in solar panels a little to literal, but that's OK when you are passionate about something.
Me, I want my A/C 100% 24/7, hell I want all my electrical needs met 24/7 with no compromise.
Now to meet the needs of solar limitations the revelation to me is going to be new products that run on lower D/C voltages.
My honest is Mother Nature is going to take care of it all before the human race figures it all out, and by all, I mean all.
Humans are about the dumbest creatures on this planet. We have the ability to reason, and its going to be our demise.
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| OP | Post 53 made on Wednesday December 27, 2017 at 01:49 |
Ernie Gilman Yes, That Ernie! |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2001
30,104 |
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On December 27, 2017 at 01:07, Hi-FiGuy said...
My honest belief is Mother Nature is going to take care of it all before the human race figures it all out, and by all, I mean all.
Humans are about the dumbest creatures on this planet. We have the ability to reason, and its going to be our demise. George Carlin on the environment and, incidentally, on us: “We’re so self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. I’m tired of this shit. I’m tired of f-ing Earth Day. I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a shit about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.
The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles … hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages … And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn’t going anywhere. WE are!
We’re going away. Pack your shit, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam … The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas.
The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed. And if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice toward plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?”
Plastic, asshole!”
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A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw |
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| Post 54 made on Wednesday December 27, 2017 at 10:12 |
Mario Loyal Member |
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5,681 |
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On December 27, 2017 at 01:07, Hi-FiGuy said...
Running a house and powering an industrial nation are two very different things.
You even say in your own words you don't get 100% duty cycle 100% of the time.
I am not saying we don't need to change our ways, we do,but solar is no where near the potential of running this nation 100% duty cycle 24/7, not even close.
Me, I want my A/C 100% 24/7, hell I want all my electrical needs met 24/7 with no compromise. 2 fixes that can be implemented on a global scale that I mentioned that I'm not able or willing to do due to cost. 1- Larger scale power grid. Use the power generated in area that's currently in the sunlight to supply ares in the dark. Roughly 50% of the earth is in the sun/dark at any given time. I stated about 33% is in PV producing state. 2- The only reason I don't have 100% of production at my house is due to cost. I'm not a tree hugger and made the investment in PV system due to net positive gains in reduced electrical needs and buffer from constantly raising prices. Nothing (other than cost) is stopping me from getting additional PV panels and simply discarding excess electricity or sending it back to the grid and getting a check from local power company. There is simply no ROI for me to do it. Also, there are plenty of examples of large scale commercial and even industrial sites that use 100% of their electrical needs from PVs. The point I'm trying to make is not who is right or wrong. I'm simply trying to present information for people that are interesting in PVs that there are real, current day options. I've been in many meetings where individuals were skeptical or misinformed. Once we ran the numbers, the ROI was clearly demonstrated and their reservations or concerns were addressed. The decision was theirs to make, and I really didn't care which way they went -- as long as they had the correct data to make those decisions.
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| Post 55 made on Wednesday December 27, 2017 at 17:24 |
Dean Roddey Senior Member |
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In the end, there isn't likely to be 'a' solution, I don't think. There will be various partial solutions that add up more and more over time. Things like solar move production closer to consumption, which is a huge gain that isn't being discussed here that I noticed. If you generate a lot of your own power locally, and lots of people do that, then the peak requirement needs of the big plants goes down substantially which is a huge win. If more people have batteries to use across peak need periods, it goes down even more. If more people drive hybrids that they can fuel a lot of the time using their own locally generated power, lots of things change for the better. Combining solar and wind tends to provide more non-overlapping power generation, i.e. more wind in the morning and evening as the temperature changes but the sun isn't full on. Using in ground systems to reduce the amount of heating and cooling required reduces the requirements of most of the above.
It all will add up more and more over time as we refine these technologies and large scale power generation and distribution will be less necessary for residential needs in a lot of areas of the world. Large industry might still need it, but that's still a huge reduction overall in a lot of bad bits.
Of course, maybe, possibly, maybe at some point here fusion energy will finally pop and a lot of this could become a moot point. The weird thing about it though will be that, unless solar tech has come a LONG way by then, the sudden plunge in power costs could again render it non-viable commercially.
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Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems www.charmedquark.com |
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| Post 56 made on Wednesday December 27, 2017 at 17:24 |
Dean Roddey Senior Member |
Joined:
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1,009 |
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On December 23, 2017 at 19:41, Ranger Home said...
Still hoping for California to secede. I'd happily move to that new country.
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Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems www.charmedquark.com |
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| Post 57 made on Wednesday December 27, 2017 at 20:22 |
fcwilt Senior Member |
Joined:
Posts: | September 2003
1,283 |
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On December 27, 2017 at 17:24, Dean Roddey said...
I'd happily move to that new country. Really? You'd like to live in CA? You always struck me as a very smart person.
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Regards, Frederick C. Wilt |
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| Post 58 made on Thursday December 28, 2017 at 00:12 |
Dean Roddey Senior Member |
Joined:
Posts: | May 2004
1,009 |
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I lived in CA for 18 years, from 1996 to 2014. I lived in the Silicon Valley area, Mountain View specifically. I absolutely loved it, and I pretty much weep every day that I'm here in SC instead of back there.
The weather is perfect. It's very diverse. There is a large percentage of technical professional folks, and the average educational level is high. There's an enormous amount of creativity and innovation in technology. There's amazing food from many cultures to be had. They don't allow tall buildings around there so there's none of that urban crush thing. It's a visually a beautiful place with mountains on both sides. Did I mention the weather is perfect?
And, not to be sexist, but there is notable correlation between beautiful women and high average income, which I very much appreciated.
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Dean Roddey Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems www.charmedquark.com |
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| Post 59 made on Thursday December 28, 2017 at 12:50 |
Fins Elite Member |
Joined:
Posts: | June 2007
11,627 |
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I could see living in SC would make a person weep
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Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.
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| Post 60 made on Saturday December 30, 2017 at 16:03 |
Anthony Ultimate Member |
Joined:
Posts: | May 2001
28,872 |
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just a few thoughts
1) energy needs to be a cheap commodity since it is essential to modern life. On earth it will never make sense to have a single source
2) Even though electricity is easily transportable (power lines over many miles) it is not infinitely transportable. Every cable has resistance and that means the further it needs to go the more electricity is lost (at a given voltage), no matter how cool it sounds making electricity in Australia to be transmitted to power a Montreal winter's night dose not make any sense.
3) yes solar needs a lot of space but luckily it can use wasted space. what I mean is that it can be on the roof of a home (like Mario's home) and so no other space is wasted. Now I am not talking about driving on solar cells (that's just nuts) but imagine a light structure with solar cells over parking lots, using the roof tops of sky scrapers......
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