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The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:
| Topic: | REALLY odd AC Boggle This thread has 35 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15. |
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| Post 1 made on Friday September 24, 2004 at 22:04 |
avdude Founding Member |
Joined:
Posts: | February 2002
814 |
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Hey guys,
I am in the process of adding RadioRA to my hacienda...
I have come across the damndest thing....
keep in mind I am only an aspiring electrician, knowing just enough to get by (and electrocuted on occasion), but this has me completely baffled!
I took a three gang plate leading in to my living room from the garage, off the wall...
behind it, I find the three way that controls the switched outlet in the room (one wire identified)
next to that, I find the wire that controls the power to the ceiling fan (fan is a hunter with RF control for lights and fan motor off the single switched leg from the wall) TWO wires identified....
THEN, I find the third wire...wired to a single pole EAGLE toggle switch with a blue colored back and gold and silver contacts (assuming this is just a standard cofiguration single pole switch anyway...I never use eagle brand so I don't know)...here's where it get weird though....
The third switch is wired Hot (black) on the bottom and Traveler (red) on the top...can't find another three way OR switched outlet in the entire house that is un-accounted for....ALSO, when I flip this switch, I get 0Vac on a multi-meter in OFF, and 67-70Vac in the on position...never more!
Have no low voltage anything in this house.
One more weird thing...the switch for my garage light is wired the same way....hot, and traveler to the switch, nuetral on through...regular eagle single pole as described above though...
When I throw the garage switch (actually, son throws switch, while I smell for smoke!) The voltages on the switch in the living room seem the reverse, although doing the same thing on the switch in the living room does NOT affect the switch in the garage....
first question, have you ever heard of this?
second, have you EVER heard of a RED and BLACK being used in place of black and white in anything other than 3, 4 or more way circuits?
third...how the HELL would you tone this out when nothing at the electrical panel seems to isolate it, and when I tone it, I get signal all over the place regardless of ground, or conductor...
thanks all!
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AVDUDE
"It might work better if it were plugged in and programmed first...just a thought!" |
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| Post 2 made on Friday September 24, 2004 at 22:35 |
oex Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | April 2004
4,177 |
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First - when toning wires in ac - DISCONNECT it from all joints - the tone will travel thru the neutral or ground and sound everywhere.
As for red and black on single pole switch. It sounds as if the wire is operating as a switch leg only. It may operate landscape lights, pool light or be a spare for them. We always stick a speare 3 wire down at all main entrances and poolside entrances for future use. They may be nothing. That wire may in fact be the feed from , say the crawl, white = neutral, black = hot, red = switch leg going back down to the light. Same in the garage. Feeding the box from the light. This was a common practice in the 'old days'. We quit doing it this way in the 60's though.
As for the voltage issue, if it is in fact a switch leg only, you may not be able to test for voltage that way. Try going from ground to one of the legs with the switch off. You seem to be accustomed to seeing the white pass thru and the blacks on the switch. In this situation the feed and switch leg is in the box (Typical). You have a non typical application so you'll need to figure out what is what.
Give me a little more info and I'll get you thru - i hope.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying hire a pro without actually saying hire a pro |
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| OP | Post 3 made on Friday September 24, 2004 at 22:55 |
avdude Founding Member |
Joined:
Posts: | February 2002
814 |
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On 09/25/04 02:35 ET, oex said...
First - when toning wires in ac - DISCONNECT it
from all joints - the tone will travel thru the
neutral or ground and sound everywhere. OK...but how do I disconnect it if I don't know where the other end is?
As for red and black on single pole switch.
It sounds as if the wire is operating as a switch
leg only. It may operate landscape lights nope...not even PW for that pool I wish! Sorry...KB track home! light or be a spare for them. We always stick
a speare 3 wire down at all main entrances and
poolside entrances for future use. They may be
nothing. That wire may in fact be the feed from
, say the crawl, white = neutral, black = hot,
red = switch leg going back down to the light. No crawl...unfinished basement with sump and GFI though...garage has GFI as well....ALSO, there would have to be (by CO Code) a NON-GFI in the garage for a freezer... Same in the garage. Feeding the box from the
light. This was a common practice in the 'old
days'. We quit doing it this way in the 60's
though.
As for the voltage issue, if it is in fact a
switch leg only, you may not be able to test for
voltage that way. Try going from ground to one
of the legs with the switch off. You seem to
be accustomed to seeing the white pass thru and
the blacks on the switch. In this situation the
feed and switch leg is in the box (Typical).
You have a non typical application so you'll
need to figure out what is what.
Give me a little more info and I'll get you thru
- i hope. thanks OEX...I'll try these testing measures....I am stumped by this...but I never thought of testing the voltage in that way!
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AVDUDE
"It might work better if it were plugged in and programmed first...just a thought!" |
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| Post 4 made on Friday September 24, 2004 at 23:33 |
oex Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | April 2004
4,177 |
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Just cause the wire is white doesnt mean much. On non gfi lines this works fine. if its a kb track shack, the wiring may be BIZARRE. On the unknown 3 wire. The white is terminated with all the other neutrals? Black is with the other hots?
Does the 3 wire go down? If so, trace it that way although I'm sure you would have if it were that easy. Remove the switch and tone on the red and black. Is there attic above? Trace it that way. Being a gambler, I bet you'll find the wire goes down to a junction for future basement lights. The 3 wire is the feed (Black and white) red is the switch leg. Is your basement steps right there?
Here's a thought. Take you voltage tester and check EVERY outlet in your living room. Check the TOP & BOTTOM. Could be a switch for half of a receptacle. I'd bet on this too.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying hire a pro without actually saying hire a pro |
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| OP | Post 5 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 00:08 |
avdude Founding Member |
Joined:
Posts: | February 2002
814 |
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On 09/25/04 03:33 ET, oex said...
Just cause the wire is white doesnt mean much.
On non gfi lines this works fine. if its a kb
track shack, $250,000 piece of shit is what it is...my wife wanted it WAY more than I!!! the wiring may be BIZARRE. Understatenment of the century right here...when the house was built (I'm second owner) they'd forgotten to PW it for LV (forgot on six home actually, all in a row) so they did the entire PW on the exterior of the home! I have fixed that...but got a discount because of it! On the
unknown 3 wire. The white is terminated with
all the other neutrals? YES Black is with the other
hots?
YES Does the 3 wire go down? no...goes up If so, trace it that
way although I'm sure you would have if it were
that easy. Remove the switch and tone on the
red and black. Is there attic above? nope, second floor above Trace it
that way. Being a gambler, I bet you'll find
the wire goes down to a junction for future basement
lights. basement is fully wired for lights already, has six in place The 3 wire is the feed (Black and white)
red is the switch leg. Is your basement steps
right there? basement has single throw 3 way at top for stairs, then three way and another single pole for basement lights at bottom Here's a thought. Take you voltage tester and
check EVERY outlet in your living room. Check
the TOP & BOTTOM. Could be a switch for half
of a receptacle. I'd bet on this too. did this too...OEX, if you WERE a betting man in Vegas tonight, you'd be a broke one...this is just weird, although I DIDN'T check BOTH sides of EVERY outlet, so I'll do this right now!
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AVDUDE
"It might work better if it were plugged in and programmed first...just a thought!" |
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| Post 6 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 00:15 |
oex Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | April 2004
4,177 |
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Here's the challenge. From what your telling me the 3 wire in question is in fact a feed to somewhere which also needs the ability to be turned on. Like a switched outlet. I have also seen numerous ceiling fans wired this way - fan always on - light switched.
Work with me here, I only have a few chips left. Lookin for the "Yo!"
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Diplomacy is the art of saying hire a pro without actually saying hire a pro |
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| Post 7 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 00:17 |
oex Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | April 2004
4,177 |
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they'd forgotten to PW it Did they use the TotallyPrewired.com guy? Or the TotallyForgotToPrewire.com guy?
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Diplomacy is the art of saying hire a pro without actually saying hire a pro |
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| Post 8 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 13:37 |
geraldb Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | June 2002
412 |
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I'd put my money on it being Tim's job. Only problem was this unit was number 4 on the list, and as we all know , he can only wire 3 a day. (mild oversight)
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| Post 9 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 13:39 |
geraldb Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | June 2002
412 |
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avdude,
email me some pics of the boxes with the switches pulled out, but still connected. I may be able to shed some light (that was one of those pun things wasn't it?)
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| Post 10 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 20:59 |
Larry Fine Loyal Member |
Joined:
Posts: | August 2001
5,002 |
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OEX, do the black wire on the middle switch and the red wire on the right switch both enter the same cable? My guess is 'yes', in which case the entire cable feeds the fan box; check inside its canopy.
These days, standard fan/light units are wired with two switched hots, one (usually the black) for the fan motor and one (usually the red) for the light kit. Fans with remotes only need a single hot.
Single-pole switches are labeled 'on' and 'off' on the toggle handle, and have two terminals (not counting the grounding screw), while three-ways are not so marked, and have three terminals.
It sounds like the Eagle switch you described may be a dimmer, or may be illuminated, and may have an extra, silver terminal for a neutral wire for the built-in light. Any markings on the back?
Quick lesson: The term 'traveler' is used for the pair of wires that interconnect three-way switches. 'Switched leg' refers to a switched hot that feeds a connected receptacle or fixture.
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| Post 11 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 21:25 |
elnickster Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | June 2004
227 |
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Was just gonna say............
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Nickster |
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| Post 12 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 21:26 |
elnickster Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | June 2004
227 |
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U Need Larry Fine.
Sorry about the double post, just made it from Junior to Regular Member today, I'm a little gassed up....
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Nickster |
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| OP | Post 13 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 21:30 |
avdude Founding Member |
Joined:
Posts: | February 2002
814 |
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On 09/26/04 00:59 ET, Larry Fine said...
OEX, Larry, It's ME that needed help with this...and I'm glad you and OEX were here...I got a couple more things to check...and now the red, black dual switch thing is one of them! thanks!
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AVDUDE
"It might work better if it were plugged in and programmed first...just a thought!" |
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| Post 14 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 22:38 |
oex Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | April 2004
4,177 |
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still stuck? Email me a photo
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Diplomacy is the art of saying hire a pro without actually saying hire a pro |
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| Post 15 made on Saturday September 25, 2004 at 22:52 |
Larry Fine Loyal Member |
Joined:
Posts: | August 2001
5,002 |
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My bad. Sorry, OEX.
Photo me, too.
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