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Do you see a pattern here?

Already answered multiple times:

The IEEE Standard then includes more numbers.

Why do telcos use properly earthed 'whole house' protectors and not that other (what the NIST calls) "useless" stuff? They suffer about 100 surges with each storm. Must never have damage. Telcos upgrade their earthing massively for just a little bit more protection. Because better protection is only provided by what? Better earthing.

You did not even ask about low impedance. So you must already understand impedance. Knowledge of that basic and relevant electrical concept is important. You did not ask because you already know?

In addition to the 'whole house' unit were many previously posted recommendations for superior protection: separation (ie 'less than 50 meters'), low impedance connection, a 'primary' protection system, understanding what was originally demonstrated by Franklin, etc. But again, your question was previously answered. Why does that make you so nasty?

Wow

/facepalm

Hopefully you do. Well over 50% of consumers are brainwashed by advertising. They buy Listerine that does almost nothing. Know that Pond's sells age defying creams. That the mythical ingredient in Danon Yogurt (digitalis rectalitis) improves digestion (as if that is necessary). Bought magic hair tonics to look younger. A majority - well over 50% - even believed smoking increased health. Because advertising said so.

When the Surgeon General said cigarettes are killers, then same manipulated consumers then got angry at the Surgeon General. So many have resorted to the same emotion here. Those most easily brainwashed by advertising routinely get nasty rather than learn. In part, they must admit to being so easily manipulated. Better is to attack the messenger.

For over 100 years, and in every facility that cannot have damage. Those plug-in magic boxes are not used. Why do a majority here deny it? Advertising easily targets those who get emotional rather than informed.

I don't expect the majority here to learn. I do expect a minority to learn how easily the majority have been manipulated by propaganda and lies. Those most easily manipulated by propaganda quickly identify themselves. Will post without facts or numbers. Will recite subjective and typically mythical claims. Will get emotional rather than learn from their mistakes.

The minority can have protection without snake oil. By spending tens or 100 times less money. By learning simple concepts. One concept: if he posted without numbers, then he is probably lying. Was easily manipulated. Will then post nasty to mask his ignorance. Is an ideal target of propagandists.

Advertising targets the many who are easily manipulated. Advertisers would also complain about the FTC who demanded they tell the truth. Truth takes all the fun out of advertising. It is fun to so easily manipulate people who ignore all numbers.

The fewer informed consumers - always a minority - who don't get emotional can learn that a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

From the response to "Do you see a pattern here?"


Please try to turn that into a sentence.


Please try to turn that into a sentence.


Are you implying that you target those "who get informed" -- sorry, not a quote, just hoping that's a reasonable construction from what you wrote.


That prejudice of yours makes me wonder why you are bothering to waste your time here. You're wasting ours!


Hmmm... looks like you're offering to make some of us feel better about ourselves if we believe you are educating us. Odd, isn't it, that you think we'll believe false advertising, which is bad; but if you offer to make us feel better about ourselves, you can pretty much say whatever you want... and this is no different from advertising.


What the hell does this mean? I haven't seen anyone stand up. I haven't seen any posts here where people say "hey, I'm most easily identified by propaganda" ! ! !


Oh, I see what you did there -- they won't identify themselves, per se, but they will act in ways that let the clever ones among us identify them. Your writing here, using sentence fragments, looks very much like every political website, left or right, that consists of true believers. You're being non-grammatical, exciting emotions while decrying that method. In a word, you're a poop.


"Will then post nasty?" Are you not posting nasty?


Hey, ya know, I just realized that you've been blathering here for paragraph after paragraph without providing any numbers. You like to talk about numbers when other people don't use them. How come no numbers here?


It's only as effective as every individual component. You could also say it's only as effective as its connection to the hot lead. It's only as effective as its connectino to neutral. It's only as effective, etc.

This has been fun. I'm going back to earth now, but I'll leave this:


Apparently, it's the earth ground. Sorry I don't have any numbers to cite.

Looks like he should stay on avs where the DIY crowd take him seriously

I see you did not respond to my quotes from NIST reference you provided. So I assume it was accepted as is. Now let's address this point where whole house devices provide such perfect protection no matter which brand or design.

First up is Eaton/Cutler-Hammer. This is actual failure mode in the field:



Notice the burned PC board traces rendering the device useless. The surge was shorted out by the MOV but the weakest path was the circuit board traces.

Another example:



On the left is the original device (Eaton Vanguard VGX). In the middle and to the right are catastrophic failures of the device literally blowing a hole through the enclosure!  You were saying something about zero energy dissipated by these devices?  What do you think created that damage?

Another example:


Smoked again. Why? Because details and the design matter in these devices as much as the $25 device. The mere classification of a device into this category does not give you license to say it all work just as well.

There are two problems behind these failure modes:

1. They hide behind the fact that UL testing is only for one mode at a time. This means the device is under-designed to handle higher heat buildup/energy when this is not the case.

2. Lack of "component level fusing" (CLF) where each MOV is properly protected. Remember, all this device is doing is creating a short to the ground. That will cause the MOV to start to cook as massive amount of current goes through it.  Unlike what you are assuming, the device does not have zero impedance when it avalanches.  You have to have a mechanism to keep it from smoking once its maximum rating is reached. A fuse does that.  

Here is an example of good design:



And a company who stands behind it, repairing any failure of the device should its fuses blow.

So no, "better company integrity" is no assurance of device performance just because we are talking about whole house devices.   You must perform the same due diligence into the design and understanding of its principal operation just the same.   Quality and attention to key aspects of design matter and matter greatly.  Imagine having these devices smoke in a $10M house where you were responsible for $500K of that cost!  And the downstream device damage that would occur post these boxes failing.
 
As I noted in my first reply, you make some good points but they are marred by incorrect assumptions.  Here is a great example of you thinking a $50 device works its wonders where data clearly shows that it can fail and fail just as catastrophically as point of use product.

Guys, please stop feeding the troll!
It should be obvious to everyone at this point, Mr.Westom is an idiot. He just quotes things and has no actual understanding of what he is saying. He's a drone! His IQ is pretty low, even for the short bus (which I'm sure he rode when he was little). Feel sorry for his pathetic life if you want (I kind of do). But please just stop feeding the troll... your going to make him fat.

Then you are the only one able to decipher your bad sentence structure. I asked a simple question several times, "WHAT DO YOU NEED IF ANYTHING IN ADDITION TO A WHOLE HOME SURGE UNIT?"

You've been asked multiple times, and somehow believe that anyone here knows your answer. Instead you launch into tirades about munitions dumps, telcos, etc, without any explanation about what products they use, or why we should care.

If you would just list what you think a solution consists of, we could have an informed discussion. It seems you don't wish that, as you don't wish an informed discussion. That is the only reasonable explanation I can come to.


Again you lauch into a tirade against me, that has no bearing on anything I've said. Jeeessshhh?!


Yes, I don't ask about low impedance, finally you got something correct! Code compliance defines what must be done in this area. In addition my Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering gives me a bit of knowledge of this area. It also gives me insight into the fact that you don't wish to list a full solution, as then you'd have to defend that solution, and it is much easier for someone who doesn't really know what they talk of, to simply talk about munitions dumps and telcos!

You don't promote anything "inside the building" yet have no solution therefore for secondary surges induced in the building wiring by the action of the whole home supressor. I don't know if you don't understand the physics of how voltage is induced on other wires by such a field, or just choose to ignore the complexities, as it is simply too much for you... as the solutions to things such as induced voltages, and multiple connections to equipment get complex and require knowledge of how you can protect against differential voltage and have equipment survive. But these would be technical discussions that require reason, which you seem unable to exhibit.


You appear unable to list your idea of what an protection system entails in one simple posting, without the soapbox attached. I can only come to the conclusion that this is because you haven't a clue about what is needed.

Everyone but one person here views you as an "Internet Troll", "Feces Stirrer". I'm sure your opinion will be that yours is the correct one!

Unless I see a concise listing of what is required, I'm leaving this discussion, as I did in your previous posting. You don't seem interested in learning or teaching anything. You appear to just like inciting others.

I never said that exactly. Some 'quoted' claims are not what I said. With so many others posting nasty and outright lies, I must pick which of some myths to expose. Keep the replies short and at the layman level. Much of your post contained informed but not always complete facts.

The NIST, like all other professional organizations, says effective protection is not the protector. Where must energy dissipate to have no damage? In earth. Why can homes suffer direct strikes without anyone even knowing it happened? A proven solution typically costs about $1 per protected appliance. More responsible manufacturers provide a solution that any informed homeowner can install. Only repeating what was posted so many times.

I never said the 'whole house' protector provides perfect protection. I said no protector does the protection. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? I never said a protector absorbs near zero energy. But I did say those 'profit center' protectors, described by iform (ie Belkin and Monster), must absorb the entire surge and can only absorb near zero energy. No problem. They are not intended for protection from typicallly destructive surges. May even be a potential house fire; especially if a 'whole house' protector is not earthed. At what point do others become concerned as to ask about house fires created by ineffective protectors?

Two basic requirements for protection. First says how protection works during each surge. That is mostly about what absorbs energy AND how energy is connected. Concepts include impedance and something not discussed because nobody (apparently) wants to learn about single point ground.

Second says system life expectancy. Since lightning is typically 20,000 amps, then a minimal protector starts at about 50,000 amps (residential). If a protector has failed (ie those industrial protectors), then the protector might have been undersized when installed. A facility learns from their mistake and eliminates the problem. Those protectors may have been victim of a serious 'protection system' defect elsewhere.

That problem is not necessarily the protector. But any failed protector suggests failure directly traceable to a human mistake.

One failure reason could be a defective 'primary' protection system. Mentioned repeatedly hoping that anyone here would want to learn. What followed were insults and nasty replies rather than even one question of 'low impedance', single point earth ground, essential protector parameters, or even "what is the primary protection system?"

bcf1963 demonstrated no grasp of 'secondary protection'. For some reason (probably word association), he speculated that protectors inside a building are 'secondary protection'. Another example of "knowing" without first learning this stuff. Well, we also made some of those mistakes. And then learned from our mistakes. Learned rather than obstinately denying well proven science and numbers.

Yes, a protector needs fusing because that catastrophic damage must never happen. A grossly undersized protector must disconnect from a surge as fast as possible. Leaves an appliance connected to that surge. But sometimes that fuse does not disconnect fast enough. Then an inferior protector may create a house fire. Just another reason why protectors are best located away from appliances, not on a rug, not behind furniture, and not in any potential fire locations. Just another reason why protectors are located at the service entrance.

amirm, I never said better company integrity means a better protector. But I did indicate companies with inferior integrity sell grossly undersized protectors that also do not claim to protect from destructive surges. Defined were companies who provide the supieror and minimally sufficient solutions. A benchmark for protection for generations is Polyphaser. A benchmark among protectors with obscene profit margins is Monster.

Did you know speaker wire has polarity? Monster sold speaker wire marked for which end connects to an amp and which end must connect to speakers. Using logic some posted here, many could even hear the difference if speaker wires were reversed. So Monster sold that $7 speaker wire for $70. Monster knows the naive will associate price with quality. Their wire costs more money? Therefore it must be better? Monster also understands many will get emotional and nasty rather than admit to being deceived. That also increases profits.

Price does not define quality. Best protection solutions also cost tens or 100 times less money. That does not say all protectors from Siemens, Intermatic, Polyphaser, etc will be sufficient. That only says one has little reason to expect a profit center from Belkin, Panamax, Monster, etc to provide effective protection.

I did not say nor even imply effective devices dissipate zero energy. I did say protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. iform kindly demonstrated ineffective protectors (ie Belkin, Monster) that only claim to absorb near zero energy. That are undersized. Rather than learn from his numbers, he did not understand the numbers. Then became angry. Unfortunate.

amirm - correctly defined was UL testing. UL 1449 tests a protector that might even fail during some tests. UL does not care. UL only cares that a protector does not create a fire threat during THEIR tests. Even if the protector fails in some test - no problem. As long as the protector does not threaten human life.

Unfortunately many, manipulated by advertising, assume a UL listing means a protector does effective protection. Or that ANSI/IEEE C62.xx defines protection. Neither do. But advertising successfully implies it anyway. Their target audience are consumers easily manipulated by advertsing.

I never said 'whole house' protection is perfect. Again, it is maybe "99.5% to 99.9% protection". Which is superior to the maybe 0.2% protection provided by a Belkin, Panamax, Monster, etc. Any homeowner that does not have a 'whole house' protector should also worry about house fires created by those inferior products. Since Monster, et al protectors need protection only provided by earthing a 'whole house' protector.

Your pictures demonstrate human created failures. One possible reason: missing or compromised 'primary protection' system. But no reason to discuss that. Most here cannot even get past the advertising myths.

For example, bcf1963 asked, ""What do you need if anything in addition to a whole house home surge unit?" A list was provided. He ignored it or just does not get it. Then asked the same question again. bcf1963: code clearly does not define "low impedance". Code says nothing about low impedance. Is that clear enough? Code discussed concepts defined by resistance - not impedance. A low resistance connection can also be an excessively high impedance connection. You should have understood that by now. But again, it would have been discussed if bcf1963, et al was not assuming he knew this stuff.

bcf1963 - what you are posting is not 'secondary' protection. But again, the same point. You keep assuming what you do not know. As demonstrated repeatedly, protection inside a building is, essentially, near zero protection. Protection only from non-destructive transients. And definitely is not 'secondary protection'. Had you wanted to learn, I would say more. No reason to. You will simply post another nasty denial.

Others are invited to ask with the intent of learning from one who did this as an engineer even decades ago. Direct lightning strikes without damage - routine. Victim of advertising and hearsay? Quickly identified by posts without facts and numbers.

It's a train wreck, really! The Atchison, Topeka and Westom!


Wait, no, really, wait, wait, hold on, hold on, just a moment, I have to catch my breath....

Oh, my, my ribs are hurting, my cheeks are in pain from the Riddler-type grin that gave me. Oh, my, oh, my, it's so hard to type from the floor, but I'm laughing too hard to stay in my chair.

Okay. I stopped trying to write for a couple of minutes. I'll see if I can continue.


EDIT: If you saw what I wrote earlier, you saw it ended with this:

I have to go take a shower.  Maybe two.



Well, one shower was enough, and the above comments are enough for this clown.

Hey, you got your laughs! Go away now and let's see the lions!

Go ahead, prove me wrong! Show me in which of your messages you provide this list. It should be easy for you to do so, if in any of your postings you have posted such a list of elements, quote that message and highlist each required item in red. This should make it easy for you to prove me wrong, if in fact you have done what you profess.


I love how you like to twist others words, while proclaiming loudly that others are twisting yours. LOL If you think I don't understand the differance between a low resistance and low impedance connection, you are the one who is deluded. Note that code defines a resistance for a ground, but also defines lengths and how that should be run... and all these things taken together will define a maximum impedance, as physics will take over. So yes, I do know my stuff, but apparently you don't grasp the idea that making a resistance measurement, along with defining physical parameters of how to make the connection, defines the maximum impedance.


I love how you tell everyone else how we need to be quantitative in our discussions, and then you post "...essentially, near zero protection." Could you get any less quantitative? So you now agree it gives some protection. LOL With sentences like "You keep assuming what you do not know." how could I hope to make any sense of what you say.

I've given up with you. You are unwilling to teach, and you certainly can't learn. So, no need for me to reply to you further, as you aren't interested.

Am i missing something here? Why is everyone on westoms ass? It is pretty obvious he has pretty decent knowledge and u.derstanding of surge protection. It seems to me more than anyone else commenting. I completely agree that whole home protection is best method. Are you guys disagreeing? TPS has lots of good solutions for whole house surge. Check them out. You will return to this thread agreeing.