I absolutely agree ! i often run trunking to run cables .if you know the locations of the equipment then the propossed speaker positions or display position as long as the trunking is big enough it doesnt matter what cables you might need you just pull the ones you do
Hey theres your new standard... trunking everywhere with pull wires! ;) i'll call it bob a job IEE7234

This message was edited by bob griffiths on 11/08/03 13:42.

Thats whats so nice about standards... There's so many of them to choose from.

With all these new standards flying around, I think we need a whole new line of standards to catagorize the not yet printed, out of date standards. Anyone have any ideas? Hurry, there may be money to be made here.

pro-ton:
The reason for spec'ing termination boards and conduit is for that very reason. If you read the spec, you would see that fiber is there already. If some other wiring is to replace something that will be obsolete, then it may be run more easily using the conduit rather than snaking wires with no guide. This standard is designed to do as you have asked! From the DIY'er to the professional, this wiring standard can have any electronic equipment introduced to the home and that homeowner will be able to use it with no more problems than currently experienced. Just be careful of wishing technology a wide open environment. Remember, part of invention is IMPROVEMENT. If we reinvent the wheel each and every time, we lose momentum, materials, and position-the same as a chess game. Don't you want to win strong?

QQQ:
Do you know how long I've been in this industry? What's the largest project that I have ever completed? How can I verify your knowledge? Are you certified by anyone that is NOT a manufacturer? Hmmm, it seems that words alone cannot prove anything, but observation and questioning created Mt. Rushmore and skyscrapers.

The public, believe it or not, believes in the realtor, builder, and architect MORE than the 'AV guys', 'wiring guys', or 'automation guys' PERIOD! Why not give these industries some knowledge in a way that they can feel they're helping to dictate how technology is integrated into THEIR designs and products (we ARE on their turf. We have no purpose if there is no residence). I hardly believe there is an architect or builder on the planet that does not know what a home network or home automation system is. Luxury realtors go out of the way to list amenities such as automated lighting, camera surveillance, and home theater. If an architect can specify an HEQ and a series of KP locations instead of saying 'Lutron lighting system', can that help you when the homeowner calls for an install? I think so.

chardero:
Be quiet when grown folks are talking! Smart ass comments like that help no one! If you wish to keep this industry stagnant, do it on your own time! I'll bet you aren't even the type to apologize when proven wrong!

bob griffiths:
This wiring standard is put together to be INDEPENDENT of the equipment that will be installed on top of it. This standard does not show anyone how to specify equipment, this is still your show. So, preventing that scenario from happening is up to YOU, Mr. AV guy;) Wiring certification is just for the wiring. If you decide to install without this standard and its a good job, God bless you. The intent of this standard is first for nationwide acceptance, then worldwide adoption. If this standard meets its goal, how will your 'good install' fare?

And bob, you're not even close to being funny...

sirroundsound:
Expertise in high end- and ultra high end solutions is still for you to place on top of this standard. The basic design of this standard is to cover a certain group. That group does not include the super-picky, audiophiles, and videophiles. It is for the general public. After the public is satisfied with the quality of the install, it is your professional suggestion to do better. That kind of quality will not be supprtable by the public because not everyone wants or can afford such quality at once. And just becasue we deal with an affluent market on a daily basis, does not mean that they want to spend that kind of money all of the time. Many became affluent because of frugal habits, don't forget.

You do make an important point of power requirements, however, that I will have to add to the standard. Thank you for your response.

rhm9:
The same way we probably can't verify each other's education or background, you can only go but so far with convincing a builder or architect of anything. Most of them feel that they are at the forefront of their trade 80% of the time, so what good does you telling them that they should trust you or your profession do for them? (this is an actual question I got when I started making presentations) If we focus that trust on a larger body that builders and architects reference regularly, we have won half the battle!

If you believe that our industry should not standardize anything, then you are lost. The computer industry standardizes EVERYTHING and it changes faster than our small industry (try 1 offering per month) successfully. Everyone complains about the changes, but keeps up regardless. Wiring will probably not change simply because it is dependent upon the manufacturers' decisions on connectivity. Right now, such changes will cause too many ripples in the water. This is why Firewire hasn't caught on as it was toted to.

I have to disagree with your notion of the public trusting the architect, builder and realtor. Realtors are not thought of by anyone I know as having any real technical expertise relating to the technologies in the home. Usually they are thought of as someone playing both sides against the middle. Ditto the builder. Like us some are good and some are not. As a source of technical expertise, I'm afraid not. All the work they do is dependant on the trades working for them, almost exclusively sub contractors that change with price, territory and availability. Architects are famous for putting the visual esthete over technical correctness and installation efficiency as a matter of fact. These are generalisations but they are born of long experience. Everything you say seems to be contrary to the consensus on this forum. Maybe you just need a reality check.

Wesley

As a former US Marine myself who worked on radar equipment during my tour I can tell you QQQ is on the up-and-up. You as a fellow dog need to be around some more in the residential audio side more before passing judgement. I've been in the rese. side for over 8 years, 2 years in the commercial side and 5 years of electronics in the military. Now since I am very active in this industry I would love nothing more than some kind of standard. BUT you are starting with the wrong side. Start with the manufactures, moviemakers as these guys have more weight than us. Just being realistic here.

I challenge you for a week to come to Birmingham and see what real world AV is like. I think you have a great passion for the 'standard' but are a little ignorant about technology and the implementation of today’s AV. You will see a 5K HT system to 700K.

JFYI there are VERY experience AV pros here and then there are trunk slammers as well. Driving down the road the other day I saw a beat up van with some magnetic signs that said "Two men and some Wire". Had to call the office and have a laugh at that. Would you know it, we have come behind them to fix their jobs before.


I think its great to have CEDIA certify people. But really its just paper. Would you say that you are better then me because? Sounds that way. I've taken more HT class than I'm sure you have in you little time here. I haven't taken the 'CEDIA' classes yet. I'd rather spend the money on certification from Crestron. Paper is paper. It's the individual who sets themselves apart.





Dave


This message was edited by DavidatAVX on 11/09/03 22:40.

I never said the industry "should not standardize anything"... we already have NEC codes to follow and the many trainings that we attend serve to continually educate us. I just feel that you are a brainiac with way too much time on your hands... the kind of microsoftie client that I love to fire. This talk about making everything so simple a builder can understand is giving way too much credit to the average builder. Before anyone reads this to mean that builders are stupid... that is NOT what I said. The builder just wants to build a house and sell it... end of story. The more complex the home... the more likely that that builder is involved with this to a point but any good builder uses good subcontractors and is more than willing to turn this part over. This 80% accepatnce factor you speak of means that a recommendation usually suffices. He/she does not have enough time to learn this standard and check up on it. Many states, Washington among them have begun to inspect low voltage and require separate permits... the inspectors don't even know what half the wiring we put in does... they just make sure it is run right. Do you think that governments and municipalities are going to spend the extra money and time to educate the inspector to make sure that all of the wiring is to your spec? In effect to understand all of the complex designs we come up with? WHERE do you suppose that money comes from when most of them are cutting staff short due to budgetary constraints?

Maybe I'm just playing devils advocate. If you want to spend all of your time being the MAN... knock yourself out. All of us will be glad to eat humble pie if this goes through and you are the one behind it. I'm sure most of my cohorts agree though, that we don't have the time to spend on such an exercise... we're way too damn busy keeping the multitude of projects we run managed and profitable and whether their is a "standard" or not... we'll continue to do whats best for our client. Also, if what you come up with in any way serves to make us obsolete, you can expect major disapproval and lack of cooperation.

Shoe:
The trust issue is not because of actual technical knowledge, but perception is reality for most, correct? This is why our public still goes to Best Buy and Radio Shack for answers. If you had a question about your HDTV, would you go to:
a. the IEEE or FCC?
b. the engineering team that designed it?, or
c. the salesman you bought it from?
If you think the answer is anything OTHER than c, then you don't think like your public does, and YOU will need the reality check.

Those who know about this industry and its professionals will seek us. Those who don't either don't care or know where to look. Realtors are the messenger to sell the product. Their technical knowledge is the least of all because that knowledge must be replaced with appealing to the buyer for the sale. The architect will have more knowledge because they at least have the advantage of shaping the home, and therefore being required to know what's being put in it according to the owner's wishes. The builder will have the most knowledge because their industry is in the actual construction of the home based on the architect's engineering skill and dealing with the on-site conditions instead of theory.

The suggestion is not to mislead the public in making these professions what they are not, but to make our offerings more appealing for these professions to take on under their own initiative. In giving a completed piece that they can start and finish easily, you make the pot sweet so you can catch the flies while making more work available for the experts (us)!

To settle this 'consensus' with a simple YES or NO answer, how many of you think that a wiring standard that has the possiblity of making more homes ready for the technology we sell and make for better relations with the architecture, builder, and real estate industries as a whole, SHOULD NOT BE PROPOSED? I will weigh your answers carefully and impartially.

DavidatAVX:
I've already mentioned who I've talked to and who I intend to talk to, so I think you're trying to preach to the choir. I'm glad to see another 'dog here, but let me challenge you: when you served, was it just a job or a lifestyle for you? If I called you a squid or a flyboy, how would you feel knowing the sacrifice you made? This is not to say you are or ever were a SB (you know what that is) or a slacker, but paper or not, there are measures in place to prove personal ability, and I've proven mine.

I am based in the NY-NJ-CT-PA area. I have seen many designs and installations-some good and some bad. I have been a part of these in some form or another. I have always tried to represent the technology and the industry as it was designed to be. My largest system to-date was in the 1M range for a design in PA that should finish in a year.

And are you referring to the same ISF that tests professional for calibrating video equipment? I didn't understand your post. I will contact you offline!


rhm9:
The NEC doesn't have much information on low voltage wiring, I have spoken to them myself to get some before I started with this wiring standard.

Gentlemen,
I am growing tired of this nay-saying. Please, simply respond in YES or NO from here on.

NO

Well, I for one am glad to see that the person who is proposing this standard does not think that it will make anything worse.

It might, of course! Now, I am lifting a sentence out of context, but he did not say "and it will (sometimes)(often)(put your own word here) improve things."

I'll get the party started.

In America......NO

Other countries......Yes

Example~Total cell phone infrastructure in China is for the use of all carriers; In America all carriers use (and pay) for their own infrastructures.

It's the American way........

I propose another question to base a consensus on. Who thinks it is possible to formulate a wiring standard that is sold by realtors and builders and speced by architects that will not fall short in some aspect when the system is designed and installed as the last two steps of the installation process?

The realtor is not the front line, they don't sell anything they don't get paid for, and they would be the last people I would want trying to sell technology no matter what the standard or how easy it is supposed to be. I am working on a "system" to get the architects in my area to start getting the clients interested in talking to me about what tech. they can have in their homes, then they can add to their sale because they will add my spec to their designs. Now I have the client nice and early in the project instead of just before the drywall goes up.
Most builders I have dealt with over the last 12 years either still don't get it, but at least ask the client if they want something, or they think all this stuff is neat, but are not interested in learning any more than just the basics about it because they feel they need to know something, not everything, thats why I am here.
I mentioned before a standard is a good idea and might very well work for the tract home industry, things have to be done quickly and efficiently, plus you could make a standard that would cover 90% of those jobs because they all have the same level of equipment and type of systems.

The NEC does have a lot of codes about how and where to run low voltage wires... where plenum and riser rated cables are to be used, etc. An inspector looks at the type of cable and whether it is rated to be where it is run... otherwise he couldn't give a rats ass about what it does.

I'm sorry to be one of many raining on your parade and I'm sure that you've put an enormous amount of time and energy into this... for that you have my respect. Like I said... too busy to help... will comply with standard if it passes unless it is too vague and doesn't cover my application... at which point I'll do the same thing I've been doing for 20 years... treating each job individually.