Phone Rings!

"Are you the guy who wired this house?"
"Yes, Can I help you?"
"My phone doesn't work when I plug it in."
"No,no,no Mr.Customer, your suppose to plug your TV into that Phone jack."

Wes, I think you need to double check the 22 guage spec.

I'm not sure about the rest of you. I like to consider my company "custom". I have designed hundreds of projects and I can not remember one I wired exactly the same. So I do not believe in standards when it comes to wiring a home. Now Wes, seems like he is a pretty intelligent guy. I just think he's wasting his time.

JMAV, I would probably bet that you use standards in your daily work, unless you're going to tell me that you wire data & phone jacks differently everytime.

We all use standards, but it's the application of those standards that vary from house to house to meet the customer's needs, that's the custom part. There is no value in wiring the house for every conceivable technology when they won't use it. It a waste of the home owners money. Like a custom home, custom A/V installations are designed to meet the owner's needs.


Cheers

I agree with JMAV, I too have done 100's of theaters, multi room systems etc etc... every home and owners requirements are different, different levels of quality, different combinations of equipment and on and on.

I do know that there are alot of newer products out there that certainly can help make it easier to wire a house, runnning component or HD over cat 5, even audio distrubution over cat 5 can save on the wire costs, but the client has to spend a great deal more on the equipment end, so these solutions are not for the basic system installs.
The moment you allow people to terminate jacks with any colour code, you create confusion. Just look at the thread over at integration pros about wire colour codes, even speaker wire, right now is wired a few different ways based on who you talk to. (red/black/& white/green or red/green & white/black) Cedia has a code for this, not everyone follows it, even companies like Russound don't follow the cedia standard.
I also don't think that the architects and builders really give a hoot, all they want is the client to get whatever they want in the way of technology, and for us not to get in the way of the building of the house. They don't typically understand all that we do, they just know they need us to do it. They also are not interested in knowing any more than just the basics, after that it's up to us to figure out how to make everything work.

Part of what Wesley has said implied that his plan is to make it easier and cheaper for the builder or home owner to have things installed, and by having a standard, just about anyone can do the work, which is a big reason why so many posts here are negative.

In high tech homes it takes alot more than just wire to bring it all together, I can just imagine the call I could get from a frustrated home owner after "anybody" took on the job of doing their system now that it is so easy, "help me, when I turn the lights on in the laundry the speakers in the bathroom come on, and when someone rings the doorbell my internet connected fridge orders 2,000.00 worth of groceries."

Maybe for areas where they are building 1000 homes, a standard could be useful, but the custom side of this industry is just that "CUSTOM" we have to think on our feet and know what we are doing, this is why we get paid for what we do.

Impaqt and JGB:

Thank you for a much better transaction of words. see how problems can be much better handled if tactfully done?

Now JGB, if I am CEDIA Designer I certified, how much AV experience does that cover? (if you took the test, you would know) Impaqt, your suggestion of the sub-code will be adopted for clarity, thank you. This is the type of feedback that I need.

FRR:
I have sent this in draft form to the TIA. Specifically, the chairperson of the committee, Bob Jensen. Mr. Jensen is also a member of BICSI. The IEEE, which I am a member, does not write standards for residential wiring. ANSI parents the IEEE, and the ISO parents ANSI. I believe to start on this current level, this standard should be proven to architects and builders first, and then move into larger arenas afterward. Thank you for your suggestion.

JMAV:
Even custom houses have standards to follow for their construction. If you may notice, this standard should follow an architectural plan or drawing of a residence, and use possible furniture layouts of that floor plan to come up with the design. If you or your client wishes to put a plasma over the fireplace, speakers out the window, and subwoofers in the ceiling, nothing is set to prevent this! The basics will always be the basics; the Kitchen will always be used for cooking, the Living Room will always be used for entertaining, the Dining Room will be used for eating and may be used as a conference room or office, etc. Human beings are creatures of habit. You will put your left leg in your pants first 8 times out of 10. Custom should only mean 'this is how I use my system', not reinventing the whole wheel. If you took over another job from an integrator who had your same habits (the wiring plans and schedule are in my head and I don't remember which phone line was the first pair!), would you appreciate re-engineering that project? Or would you rather fix the problem and move to the next? If you choose the former, you probably deal with irritated clients all the time (irritated that you're not DONE already!).

Gentlemen, this industry should be showing growth by now. I mean that growth should be in our pricing packages, business models, and feature offerings. I joined this site because I saw that professionals cared enough to fine tune their interface design skills! That is growth! This 'suck it dry because you may not have another job lined up' or 'high-tech handyman' business makes this industry look like we are a group of gypsies, floating in the wind (JMAV, I'm not trying to embarass you, but there are a lot of guys out there who think that this industry is like the dot-com boom when it is potentially larger than the internet itself). Those of you who have or run businesses know that consumer confidence is gained by showing that your business is STABLE. I would like to have this industry outlast me, how about you?

sirroundsound:
I can almost bet money that your TOPOLOGY stays within 3 to 5 different types. There are only so many ways to connect a home theater, cable box, television, computer, or any other electronic appliance. What I'm trying to hammer down is the topology and the concept of a termination board, not much else. This is why certain terminations are left to the certifier's discretion. Topology is NOT the connection of components. If you get that kind of call, then you or the integrator before you made that happen, not the standard. So, to mention which pair in a 14/4 are for the left channel, I don't care either. But I do care where a plamsa will live, and all of its possible locations in a room. Thanks for the input.

I appreciate your vision. However if the history of "standards" holds it will not last, I am sure you can think of several. If a standard is set, some genius is going to come up with a product that will work better faster or sound better if it does not follow the standard. This is how technology advances. Currently CAT5E is the standard. I would guess in ten years it will not be. We will be passing more information which will require higher speed and bandwidth then CAT5E can handle, so we may be installing fiber then. Who knows. It is my humble opinion that technology needs an open form to advance and offer home owners every option and level of quality they desire.

Wesley,

At the very beginning of your first post, you said:

"The purpose of this wiring package is to set a standard that will allow architects, builders, and electricians to offer home automation and custom electronics without requiring them to make a huge investment in training, product selection, or a particular integrator."

What type of "transaction of words" did you anticipate after coming to a board dedicated to custom installers and telling them how you are developing a standard that will make their expertise unnecessary (which is not remotely realistic but that's another story)? Were you expecting a big group hug :-)?

This message was edited by QQQ on 11/07/03 16:12.

The flames almost synged me there!

I swear to doG that if I asked Wesley what time it was, he would tell me how to build a clock instead.

Thank you Mr. engineer!

Aren't you so efficient.

Wesley,

I asked you early on what your experience was because you continue to make points that indicate you have little to no REAL experience in this field. I have been in this industry for 15+ years. We work on LARGE projects. To this day I have never, I repeat NEVER, worked with an architect or builder that is the least bit interested in getting involved in specifiying a complex wiring schema for a home. The extent of their involvement is to spec "Lutron lighting system" or locate the telephone or TV jacks on the blueprint. They do not want or need any involvement beyond that.

Nor could the average architect or builder make heads or tales out of your standard (NOT a criticism of the standard itself) because it's NOT their field. You might as well be talking a foreign language to them.

This message was edited by QQQ on 11/08/03 00:04.

Just a few questions from over here in the UK what stops un certified builders wiring to your new standard and saying i can wire to such and such a standard and it wont cost as much.It seems your giving away the crown jewels.
The Knowledge we have is our greatest strength its why people come to us .

THX is a set of standards the ideas are noble but most people systems are a mix up for example a THX select amp with cheap non THX speakers and the customer thinks they are getting the full THX experience.what stops this sort of thing happening with your standard? are you going to have inspectors to make sure all criteria are met?

Standards are useful but not at the cost of the end product.If i dont stick to your standand but do a better job for my customer does that make it a bad install?

There are other hurdles to overcome with this idea,
Your comment about the fact that there are only a few different ways to hook up theater components, and only a few different types of connector that would be needed. This may be true with the majority of components, but not all. What about balanced audio, XLR, these are not used in basic systems, but those of us that do higher end very often look for equiment with these connections. There are alot of different ways that you have to hook up hole house audio systems. Matrix audio is wired one way, Linn is wired completely different, AMX or Crestron another variation and I am sure there might be a few others out there I haven't looked into. Where the plasma goes, you are right, most of us will have a standard already of what we wire to that location (from where may vary depending upon distributed sources and local sources). What about Lutron or lite touch, Liteolier/ Vantage. 4 different companies with a range of products, Lots of different wire spec's can be used here, The average electrician can't just walk in and start wireing these systems up, even the electrical side is different than what he is used to.
If the standard is trying to spec wire, is it also trying to spec where the wire starts and ends? This would also be a part of our business that we have learned, speaker placement, keypads and other equipment, a builder doesn't know, the electrician doesn't know, heck most times the home owner doesn't know, thats why we are there.
One other question, maybe I missed this in one of your posts, are you trying to make something that will be written in a book or presented in a cd rom with diagrams and instructions etc, or are you actually trying to make a product(s)that will be actually installed (termination boards?)

You guys could have written a real standard for all the effort you've put into this thread.

Using you plasma example...

The best thing to run to the plasma from the equipment location is smurf tube... wide enough to accomodate a DVI or VGA cable... or some mythical yet to come cable... old ones out... new ones in... voila'.

I've seen an amazing amount of builders put a TV alcove above a fireplace with nothing but a cable jack and a 110 outlet. The big boys even put one RG6 jumper labeled VCR up there... no way to put a DVD player or other High Def device unless you stick it next to the TV or on its side.

Wesley, these guys do need info to stop them from doing such idiotic things as this but I agree with QQQ. Instead of trying to write a standard they can't understand... use your efforts to disseminate information about basic things such as this and do your best job to convince them to use a professional in this field who stays up to date on the latest technology in a way his sparky can not. We know what is best for a house and will continue to know by educating ourselves constantly. This industry almost defies any standardization because it morphs too quickly. Anything you write is liable to be out of date before it goes to print.