Actually, Wes's big problem is that his "standard" is an oversimplification. It will indeed lead to lower prices, but it will also lead to the entire nation of home customers being turned off to standardized installation. This will take several years, put many people out of business, and might involve lawsuits, too.

Wes, your standard just isn't complicated enough (read that "complete" and "properly informing the client that choices that must be made cannot simply be listed in a standard) to cover the real world.

And yes, what is your motivation? What do you get out of it? Please be much less vague than your standard.

Hey, Wes, all those satellite installers know how to do installation, and they are using a standard they have been taught, and I know a guy who cannot help but smirk when he tells me that he earns quite a bit of money fixing free installations....

Hey Wes,

Maybe you should take your standard to AVAD... see other thread.

Gentlemen,

I'm sorry that I waited so long to respond. I've read the responses you gave and thank you for caring so much to encourage and bash this initiative (some of you suffer from lack-of-vision syndrome).

My history is such:
From first becoming interested in electronics in 1986, I have been piqued with design. In my college days, I've "invented" what some may consider a whole house audio/video and home theater system. I was not aware of CEDIA, the CEA, or HANA at the time. I have a personal interest in architecture lasting over 17 years that I feel this industry satisfies. My educational background in electronics started in the Essex County Technical and Vocational school system, Essex County Community College, New Jersey Institute of Technology, and DeVry University. After graduating in 1992, (yes, I may be a lot younger than many of you) I've worked in the corporate and personal computer industries as an independent consultant, working on everything from AS/400 ot Banyan Vines to Novell Netware. I have held A+ certification from Microsoft and Powerbuilder. I have served as a CNE for clients such as Newark City Hall (NJ) and TD Waterhouse (before Cooper was a partner). For four years I served in the Marine Corps in Security Forces and as a grunt. After leaving the Corps, I joined the Army Reserves where I serve as a Drill Sergeant to this day. I am probably in the extremely low percentage of attending only a HALF DAY of the three-day CEDIA Designer I test prep and still passing!

Unbelievable to most of you, I simply enjoy this industry and want to see it validified. Most potential clients and adjacent industries out there see us as trunk-slammers, no better than hustlers. Creating a standard should cause architects and builders to see that our industry in trying to give them something solid that they can hold and feel. My father is a salesman of legend. He taught me that the most difficult sale is to sell an intangible. Comfort, convenience, and safety are intangibles, but they are what we tell clients every day!

This standard was created in an attempt to get everyone on the same sheet of music. Yes, I'm tired of fixing someone else's installation! Yes, I'm tired of clients cutting corners then saying "but you said my design could do that" after the fact and it's too late! If anyone can suggest a better way to achieve this goal, either step up or step back! The wiring is the least common denominator of any install. Wireless technology is not as fast or dependable to use so freely. Builders are willing to spend a little more for wires, so let them! At least this way they can be introduced to the RIGHT way without giving to much too soon. Architects are concerned if they cannot be a part of the total design process. Give them that too. They can also be shown the RIGHT way without having to go through extensive classes and subcontractors for answers.

The certification portion is there to keep YOU in the loop. for those who took the time to download my submission from my website, you will see that the termination and certification portion is reserved for those with at least a CEDIA Installer Level II education. The report that comes back from the certification is your quality control point. I intend on a larger organization to administer this as a regulation, namely the real estate industry!

Most of the conversations I've had with the manufacturers mentioned have only been surface level, as I've made mention to you, my fellow integrators at the same time I'm talking to them. How fast they adopt this will depend upon YOUR participation! If I can't convince these manufacturers, architects, and builders that this standard has a number of integrators that understands it, and can install their products with it, then it will not work!

For those who responded with cynical mention of some retardedly high priced electronics, don't you think that such an install requires a LOT more than just special wires? How about extra floor support? How about dedicated power lines? How about not thinking in such a small fish tank? This standard is an attempt to broaden our entire market! Lower prices mean more projects-even if your client decides at the last minute not to install the 7.1 receiver for the 5.1. All is not lost! You can sell that gear AFTER the fact without having to open up their walls again! Don't be stingy just because you can't sell that piece that will bring you a 50% markup!

This wiring standard is to be offered for FREE (that's right, free)! I have invested nothing but my knowledge and a vision. I am attempting to develop software that will make this design more automatic, but I'm still testing it for validity. I have said before that I love this industry. By establishing something that will outlast us all, I have contributed to keeping us all in business. Thank you again, and keep responding!

Wesley Mullings
Designer
Digital Lifestyles, LLC
973-985-4032

P.S. For those who feel that this will make their business model or practices obsolete, I encourage you to beat your architect or builder to the punch-master it before they do.

This message was edited by Wesley Mullings on 11/06/03 09:38.

oops!

Ya know, if you qualify your customer you will not run into this problem. It all comes down to how well you sell.

Well, I started going through your proposal in more detail... For the benefit of those that havent... I Quote

"(d) Wallplates
All wiring will be fire rated for safety (plenum)."

THis is Rediculous.... Plenum is NOT required except in plenum situations... How do you justify the added cost here????


"All CAT5, CAT5e, and CAT6 wiring will be terminated using the EIA/TIA T570A wiring standard."

Just did a goodle search on EIA/TIA T570a. Came up with ZERO hits... What is this standard?
Whats wrong with 568A/B?????

"All 24-gage wiring other than CAT5, CAT5e, or CAT6 will be terminated using RJ45 jacks in no defined
or particular order to the terminator.
All 22-gage wiring will be terminated using 6-conductor RJ11 jacks in no defined or particular order to
the terminator."

This is laughable..... No Defined or particular order??? in what sense is thata Standard????

"All 18-20 gage wiring will be terminated using RCA jacks."
What if its used for IR??? RCA?? Please...
"All speaker wiring using 16-12 gage wire will be solder- or crimp terminated to banana-style binding post
terminations to be connected to their respective jacks."
Huh? I guess binding posts are nice.... What about In Wall/ In Ceiling Speakers? Putting binding posts behind the wall???

"This wiring standard is to be offered for FREE (that's right, free)! I have invested nothing but my knowledge and a vision. I am attempting to develop software that will make this design more automatic, but I'm still testing it for validity. I have said before that I love this industry. By establishing something that will outlast us all, I have contributed to keeping us all in business. Thank you again, and keep responding!"

Based upon your resume, your knowledge is very limited. Upon reviewing your "standard", it seems your vision is quite blurred. My hunch is that you came up with this standard as a way to mass market your design software which I doubt will be free.

Impaqt:

Maybe if you conducted a "goodle" search like you researched, then its not surprising how I could find about 10 valid references for TIA 570A like [Link: tiaonline.org] to your zero. To discuss plenum wiring, putting plenum in parenthesis I would have hoped that it would be understood that if plenum is necessary, then use it. If it is not, bypass it. 24 gage is the native gage of CAT5, 5e, and 6. If the purpose of a wire is not for networking or the 568A or B standard, would it make sense to dictate that the terminator MUST maintain that standard? The installer should be free to arrange that terminator as the situation dictates. That is what the statement "in no defined or particular order to the terminator" means. 22 gage is natively used for line-level audio and video wiring. There is Component, S-Video, and Composite that uses this wire in 6 or less conductors. Match that with the fact that I've specified a 6-conductor RJ11, and there you have the underlying reasons for this spec. Laughable? Unless you can find a better solution, you'll find your own words turned back on you. Tell me, do you intentionally select 18 gage wire for IR transmission? And in-wall or in-ceiling speakers should be terminated directly to the transducer. Notice that the standard does not specify speakers. In order to mark where the wiring is laid, blank wallplates are used. Impaqt, I am surprised at you. For a veteran of this forum, you act like I'm trying to rape your daughter! I am simply trying to expand my horizons, as I expect everyone else is. I thought that sharing information was encouraged on this site! You certainly do NOT make this apparent! Here's a suggestion: how about asking WHY this standard is arranged in the manner it is? How about giving SUGGESTIONS on how to change things you would like to see different?

JGB:
Is it important to slam me on my education? What's YOUR resume look like? What contributions have YOU made to this or any other industry of this magnitude (small contributions to clients, companies, communities, or organizations do NOT count)? Do you really think that a pedigree defines what you can do? I have found that you can learn from simpler things in life, you learn better from losing than winning, and you get more done using TACT. If your vision is so much clearer, then please share it. I'm willing to give it a fair and impartial shake. As for the software statement, why not give away your skills for free? I have a house in need of your expertise right now. The software started as a tool to come up with the design. If you don't want to use that tool, then that's fine, you don't really need it...

Wesley, I am not concerned with your motives but I find your vision to be limited. At the rate that technology is advancing it is not possible to future proof a house. Examples that come to mind are ethernet in the home and DVI video. Five years ago who anticipated their growth in the home? Yet now networking is accepted as commonplace, a simple appliance if you will. The only thing you can reliably prewire ls what you know for a fact will be installed. You can get a lot of it right but you couldn't guarantee with absolute certainty that all bases are covered. That takes planning. The real estate industry as a standards police is laughable. I can't address that any further now but there is some nice swampland in Florida that I'm sure they approve of if I sold it to you. Your idea is interesting but I still don't get your motivation to do this.

I am sure you have many houses in need of A/V expertise because as I said before, nowhere in your resume do you list any.

OK OK OK... I'l try to be a bit more objective here....




lol... So your resorting to bashing my typing skills? ok... Hit this link [Link: google.com] and you'll see what gooGle reports back.... I wasnt bashing the standard... Just saying I couldnt find anything on it. Thank you for the link.





Then it should listed as a sub code....

All wiring will be fire rated for safety.
d.1 Plenum rated wire shall be used where required by local ordinances
d.2 CL3 rated wire shal be run in all other situations



Yes... This makes sense to me aif your designing a STANDARD

Again... Your developing a STANDARD here... This standard is NOT going to save me any time if I inherit someone elses job. I'm going to have to go back to every wall plate and tone/re-terminate every jack in the home. If this was standardized as you suggest, I quick verification that the standard was used should be all I need to do.


No, I dont think so.... because I'm going to spec the proper cable and proper terminations for the application. I have no intention of ever running Component or RGB level video on a RJ11 connector. They will be terminated to HD15 or BNC termination on my jobs.


No, I usually run Cat-5


OK.. That makes sense... I dint notice that in your specs....


Have you ever tried to cut out a "Blank wall plate" installed in a metal ring when installing a In-Wall or In-Ceiling speaker? Let me tell you.. this is NOT fun. The Sawzall tends to destroy all the drywall around the ring, a rotozip is painfully slow....


Well... Sorry you took it that way...... As I said before I commend you on your attempt.... Certainly not something I'll be doing anytme soon.


Well... I feel the way i do things works well for my clients & I.

Wesley, here's my observations on standards and the development of standards within the telecommunications industry (the A/V industry is using telecomms standards more and more because convergence and the good work done by the telecomms industry).

Standards are developed over time and it is an iterative process that consumes a lot of time and energy. Telecommunications companies have entire departments devoted to the learning of standards and influencing of standards.

Quite often a proposed standard is developed by a company trying to position their product/network architecture (I believe this is where you come in with your S/W tool) as the way to do business (remember the Beta/VHS battles?). Yes, they both were technology proposals that met different fates not because of their technical merit, but rather of different marketing strategies.

To introduce a standard within a given industry(s) the proposed standard should be submitted to the appropriate standards organization such as IEEE, ANSI, ISO ...etc. It's in organizations such as these is where you will either find true success or failure.

As I previously stated, I believe that your standard is flawed from a business case perspective (I'm assuming that there is a business case to support the expense of marketing your standards) never mind the technical aspects. To be accepted within the telecomms industry in NA you will have to go through one of the existing standards organizations or have an incredable amount of cash backing you up, because marketing it won't be cheap (you don't have an uncle called Bill do you?)

I would like to propose that you submitt your standard to the appropriate standards body for approval and if i gets accepted the majority of the people on this board will follow it.

Cheers

Wesley,

FRR just laid it all out for you.

Cool, If I plug my TV into this RJ11 phone looking thing I can get HD
I love technology!